01-02-2004 07:24									#1
	Oh geez, Kerry's a ****ing idiot Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/natservice/

quote: Creating a New Army of Patriots On September 11th, 2001, America experienced the most terrible and deadly attack in its history. Yet, President Bush's response was to call on Americans to wait in long lines at airports, go shopping, or wrap their windows in plastic. As President, John Kerry will have the courage to lead and call on all Americans to make our nation stronger. Whether it is protecting America from the threats of terrorism or addressing the problems we have at home, America's new challenges will not be met by the same old answers of big government or big tax cuts for the wealthy. John Kerry will call on all Americans - tapping into the idealism and ingenuity of Americans and putting it to work on building a safer, stronger, and more secure nation. Americans already make an enormous difference in their communities, volunteering, in Boys and Girls Clubs or homeless shelters. Many Americans do full time service. John Kerry believes that in these times, we need to bolster these efforts with a nationwide commitment to national service. Whether it is a Summer of Service for our teenagers, helping young people serve their country in return for college, or the Older Americans in Service program, John Kerry's plan will call on every American of every age and every background to serve. John Kerry will set a goal of one million Americans a year in national service within the next decade. John Kerry Outlines Plan to Require Service for High School Students Part of 100 days Plan to Enlist One Million Americans in National Service A Year On September 11th, 2001, America experienced the most terrible and deadly attack in its history. John Kerry believes we need to think big and do better and get more young Americans serving the nation. As part of his 100 day plan to change America, John Kerry will propose a comprehensive service plan that includes requiring mandatory service for high school students and four years of college tuition in exchange for two years of national service.

Yikes.

	01-02-2004 07:25									#2
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It's Bush's fault.

	01-02-2004 07:28									#3
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You realize hiring youngsters to fight was last done in Liberia, don't you?

IIRC, the systematic use of highschoolers as cannon fodder was last done by Napoleon in the west

	01-02-2004 07:31									#4
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Kerry Looks Tough to Beat in Five States
55 minutes ago
Associated Press

By RON FOURNIER

WASHINGTON - John Kerry (news - web sites) looks tough to beat in five Democratic presidential contests Tuesday, party strategists say, with dreams of a decisive sweep hinging on two states — South Carolina and Oklahoma.

The results of those two races may determine whether Kerry delivers a knockout punch, or a glancing blow. He would like to chase Wesley Clark (news - web sites) and John Edwards (news - web sites) from the race Tuesday, then finish off a staggering Howard Dean (news - web sites) four days later in Michigan.

The senator's chief of staff, Mary Beth Cahill, said odds were against a sweep.

"It has never happened, somebody winning everything. There is no precedent for that," she said. "So I think it's extremely unlikely." Seeking to lower expectations, other aides said Kerry would be pleased with a few victories and a bulk of the 269 delegates up for grabs Tuesday.

Kerry, who won opening-round contests in Iowa and New Hampshire, hopes that his momentum overcomes the $11 million in advertising that Clark, Edwards and Dean poured into the seven states while he was off the air, fighting for survival in Iowa.

Heading into a frantic weekend of campaigning, public polls showed the Massachusetts lawmaker with a commanding lead in Missouri, Arizona and North Dakota — states with 143 delegates at stake. But pollsters working for the campaigns said the race was tightening in Missouri and Arizona.

Public polls were mixed in South Carolina, with one showing Kerry and Edwards tied and another giving the North Carolina senator a lead. Internal campaign polls showed Edwards slightly ahead in the chase for 45 delegates.

In Oklahoma, where 40 delegates are up for grabs, polls showed Kerry, Clark and Edwards locked in a three-way race.

Party strategists and polls gave Kerry the edge in New Mexico (26 delegates) and Delaware (15).

Experts in every state had a word of caution. "Though Kerry looks awfully strong, there are still enough undecided voters to make things interesting everywhere," said Tom Dickson, chairman of the North Dakota Democratic Party.

For his part, Kerry sounded comfortable and confident Saturday, even taunting the Bush White House with the thought of facing him in the fall.

Before some 700 supporters in Kansas City, he said, "All those lobbyists. All those powerful interests that meet in secret in the White House. They hear us coming."

The candidates and their plans:

_ Edwards acknowledges that he must win South Carolina, the state where he was born. The first-term North Carolina senator hopes to emerge as Kerry's singular rival, which he would certainly do by winning Oklahoma and exceeding expectations in Missouri, New Mexico and Delaware. He has matched Kerry ad-for-ad in key states. Kerry advisers see Edwards as their biggest threat.

_ Clark, a retired Army general, has gotten little thus far for his $2.3 million in South Carolina advertising. His stock has fallen in Arizona and New Mexico, too, but he remains strong in conservative Oklahoma. "There's a question of whether Kerry's momentum will become a big factor," said Don Hoover, an Oklahoma strategist. Clark needs a win, maybe two, to set the stage for a Kerry v. Clark race. His aides acknowledge that's a tall order.

_ Dean, the former front-runner, is next week's wild card. He limped out of New Hampshire after two-straight Kerry victories and fired his campaign manager. Nearly broke, Dean pulled his ads off the air and curbed his travel to Tuesday's states. Strategists say he can contend in New Mexico's caucuses and pick up delegates elsewhere. Dean is hoping that Clark and Edwards fall out of the race Tuesday, leaving him to fight a war of attrition with Kerry. The risk is that Kerry gains momentum and becomes unstoppable after Tuesday, or that Edwards emerges as Kerry's chief rival. Dean needs to win next Saturday in Michigan, where Kerry was poised Saturday to pick up an endorsement from Gov. Jennifer Granholm.

_ Sen. Joe Lieberman (news - web sites) lags in polls, but has worked hard in several states, particularly Delaware.



_ Al Sharpton (news - web sites) could be a factor in South Carolina, drawing more black voters than pollsters predict. State strategists say those votes likely would come from Kerry.

Cahill sounded both confident and cautious when she discussed Kerry's plans through the Democratic nominating convention in Boston.

"We're competing everywhere. We want to pick up delegates and we want to be extremely strong as we head into Boston," she said. "But we don't expect to win everywhere."

	01-02-2004 07:32									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You realize hiring youngsters to fight was last done in Liberia, don't you? IIRC, the systematic use of highschoolers as cannon fodder was last done by Napoleon in the west

Umm, he isn't referring to military service.

	01-02-2004 07:33									#6
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I'm voting for Bush, don't blame me; but if I weren't, I'd vote Kerry.
He means service. Not THE Service.

	01-02-2004 07:34									#7
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Yea, but it still is ****ing idiocy, and unconstitutional.

	01-02-2004 07:36									#8
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Give me a ****ing break, you spoiled whining baby.
Unconstitutional? Show me.

	01-02-2004 07:37									#9
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I still like him

	01-02-2004 07:38									#10
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Mixed feelings. On the one hand, it probably would not be bad for high school students to get out and do a little community service. On the other hand, I'm not sure that millions of pissed off high school students would make good "volunteers". The two years of service for four years of tuition sounds like a good idea, if it fiscally feasible.

	01-02-2004 07:38									#11
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quote: Unconstitutional? Show me.

quote: (from the 13th Amendment) Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

	01-02-2004 07:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Give me a ****ing break, you spoiled whining baby. Unconstitutional? Show me.

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

	01-02-2004 07:40									#13
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badabing.

constitution: 1
slowwy: 0

	01-02-2004 07:40									#14
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Nice civman

	01-02-2004 07:42									#15
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bush must have ordered the CIA to direct the mindcontrol rays to Kerry so he could look like a dumbass...

	01-02-2004 07:43									#16
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So is forcing high school students to attend gym class unconstitutional as well? Do tell.

	01-02-2004 07:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So is forcing high school students to attend gym class unconstitutional as well? Do tell.

You aren't actually forced to attend gym class, but I digress. Gym class is a learning experience, whereas this is unpaid mandatory labor.

	01-02-2004 07:48									#18
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You don't think this would qualify as a learning experience?

I think you're being arbitrary in the distinction. You may not actually be "forced" to do this service--since it's tied to high school students, it will likely just be a requirement for graduation. How is that different from requiring a kid to attend classes and have a certain grade point average to graduate (to a degree that would make it unconstitutional)?

	01-02-2004 07:48									#19
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quote: whereas this is unpaid mandatory labor.

I interpreted it as paid, just like drafted soldiers are paid. Doesn't make it any less of a violation of the 13th amendment, though.

	01-02-2004 07:52									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You don't think this would qualify as a learning experience? I think you're being arbitrary in the distinction. You may not actually be "forced" to do this service--since it's tied to high school students, it will likely just be a requirement for graduation. How is that different from requiring a kid to attend classes and have a certain grade point average to graduate (to a degree that would make it unconstitutional)?

If you want to argue that school itself is unconstitutional, go ahead.

I just argue that this is involuntary servitude. That is a point with which you cannot argue.

	01-02-2004 07:54									#21
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If it's a requirement for graduation, then it isn't. If you don't want to do it, then you don't have to--but don't expect to graduate from high school. Same thing with any other mandated curriculum: either do it or don't expect to graduate.

I fail to see why it's a bad idea at all.

	01-02-2004 07:54									#22
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quote: You don't think this would qualify as a learning experience? I think you're being arbitrary in the distinction. You may not actually be "forced" to do this service--since it's tied to high school students, it will likely just be a requirement for graduation. How is that different from requiring a kid to attend classes and have a certain grade point average to graduate (to a degree that would make it unconstitutional)?

It is somewhat arbitrary, but I think there is a clear distinction: with what Kerry's proposing, people will be forced to do work for another entity (the government), work that would ordinarily be voluntary work done by government employees. On the other hand, things like gym are certainly work but hardly forced employment. I think the very wording of Kerry's plan of "mandatory service" being nearly the same as the 13th amendment's "involuntary servitude" shows that it is different from just forced gym class.

	01-02-2004 07:56									#23
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Once again, you are stretching the meaning of involuntary servitude:

quote: requiring mandatory service for high school students

The implication here is that it's a graduation requirement. That isn't remotely tantamount to slavery or a draft or whatever, no matter how much hyperbole you want to attach to it.

	01-02-2004 07:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You don't think this would qualify as a learning experience? I think you're being arbitrary in the distinction. You may not actually be "forced" to do this service--since it's tied to high school students, it will likely just be a requirement for graduation. How is that different from requiring a kid to attend classes and have a certain grade point average to graduate (to a degree that would make it unconstitutional)?

Where do you draw the line? We could make it a "requirement" for graduation to work on a road crew for two years also. There needs to be some relevance to the diploma. Community service is a worthy goal, but who says that you have to contribute to your community to be an American?

	01-02-2004 07:59									#25
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I don't recall the proposal stripping those who decide not to participate of their citizenship, PLATO. Likewise, how is gym class particularly relevant to a scholastic education? Or art? Or music? But they're often required. Why?

	01-02-2004 08:03									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Once again, you are stretching the meaning of involuntary servitude: The implication here is that it's a graduation requirement. That isn't remotely tantamount to slavery or a draft or whatever, no matter how much hyperbole you want to attach to it.

Why was public education put into place? Because everyone has a right to an education.

Under this plan, you have the right to an education, or the right to go without mandatory servitude, but not both.

	01-02-2004 08:03									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't recall the proposal stripping those who decide not to participate of their citizenship, PLATO. Likewise, how is gym class particularly relevant to a scholastic education? Or art? Or music? But they're often required. Why?

I guess that it is a matter of degree (as most things are). The goal being a well rounded general secondary education. Like I said, it is a worthy goal. But a requirement? Where do we draw the line? Organizations for service already exist but aren't mandatory. IMO, that is how they should remain.

	01-02-2004 08:06									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't recall the proposal stripping those who decide not to participate of their citizenship, PLATO. Likewise, how is gym class particularly relevant to a scholastic education? Or art? Or music? But they're often required. Why?

The difference between these and mandatory community service is that community service is a form of (involuntary) servitude ("the condition of being bound to service" according to dictionary.com) and thus violates the 13th Amendment. The others are just as involuntary, but are not servitude.

	01-02-2004 08:07									#29
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There is no "right to education" in the Constitution, so how can you argue that while griping about the supposed unconstitutionality of this idea? Seems inconsistent.

Regardless, public education was put into place because there was a great demand for it and the potential benefits to the nation were enormous. People may have wrapped it in the language of "rights," but such a right certainly isn't stated constitutionally.

Not that I disagree with public education, mind you--I think it's vital. But I also don't mind initiatives such as this that seek to instill a sense of national community through service. Education should be first and foremost about teaching people how to be well-rounded adults. I think service would go a long way towards that, far more so than teaching kids Kipling or Longfellow, for example.

	01-02-2004 08:08									#30
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