01-02-2004 09:51									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen All I'm saying is that the idea to fund education on a national scale was at least present at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. The government established by the Constitution requires each citizen to represent his own interests by voting. Understanding what is in one's best interest requires an education. Thus, to deprive a person of an education essentially amounts to disenfranchisement, since he would not be able to properly represent his interests. And simply because something that is intended by a law is not immediately put in place does not mean that it is not mandated. The 13th through 15th amendments were ignored for almost a century. It's a stretch, I realize, but I'm bored and I feel like playing devil's advocate, even if I suck at it.

Do you have quotes or evidence that those who wrote the ammendment in the firstplace interpreted it that way? Otherwise you seem to really be advocating an absurd level of judicial activism.

The education argument also doesn't seem to work at all because its confined to the highschool level. Since the Supreme Court previously ruled that school should only be manditory for students up untill 8th grade, all the judicial and legal history on this issue is against your suggestion.

	01-02-2004 09:57									#62
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Kerry is a f*cking moron

	01-02-2004 10:23									#63
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Do you know that particular feeling of weightlessness you get on a roller coaster when you have reached the top, but just before you start the free fall down?

That's how John Kerry is about to feel.

	01-02-2004 10:32									#64
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO -I see no possible way to fund this on a federal level -I see no way the States can handle another unfunded federal mandate. -I see College and/or the entry into the workforce being delayed.

Alot of these issues are already addressed.

quote: As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nation’s youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. However, John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/natservice/

If it can't be funded, it won't be implmented, so don't worry about it. We're talking about service DURING school, so it shouldn't delay college entry. I suspect the hours we are talking about are limited enough that it wouldn't intefere with entring the workforce. While the two year option might delay entry into college, we're talking about people who couldn't afford to go to college otherwise.

	01-02-2004 11:19									#65
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This is the first seriously stupid think I have heard from Kerry.

Wow, don't the Dems have anybody who is a serious candidate?

	01-02-2004 11:25									#66
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Well, Jaguar Warropr are both from Maryland, where volunteer work for students is already mandatory. It's really a stupid system that doesn't work. Nobody does it enthusiastically, everyone begrudginly does it a chore. There is such an oversupply of volunteers because of the law it is often hard to get volunteer work because many have too many, and getting to a place that does have it is often very incovenient because close by places might not have one. Many of the places that do allow volunteers don't provide useful work for the volunteers because there is only so much work they need done, often volunteers end up just hanging around.

It inconviences the school because of all the paperwork and filing that needs to get done and it is the teachers that end up getting swamped with extra work because of all that coordinating the program requires. (For instance, all forms must be filled out in triplicate).

The program also punishes the brightest and hardest working students the most. Contray to stereotypes, not all high schoolers spend their time partying and watching TV, competition for the top schools is so competetive people who want to go into them have an insane amount of work they must do as they have to take alot of very challenging course and do extracuriccular work, and they have very little free time, so the community service often ends up as a burden for them.

Virtually all the students and teachers at my (overwhelmingly liberal) high school opposed this program. Like many high minded government programs, things that sound nice often have very hard implementation problems.

	01-02-2004 11:51									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This is the first seriously stupid think I have heard from Kerry. Wow, don't the Dems have anybody who is a serious candidate?

GO KUCINICH!

	01-02-2004 12:13									#68
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I see it as an unreasonable burden on the poor.

What about the kid that has to work to help support the family or watch over younger siblings while the parents are at work? Or the kids that will lose earnings that would have helped put themselves through post-high school vocational technical training?

For an upper class kid, it could simply mean less time sunning by the pool. For those students, the real-world experience could be beneficial. But for poorer kids, it will put them further behind.

Hmmm….rich kids benefit, poor kids suffer. WTF!?! Did Kerry switch parties!?!

	01-02-2004 12:22									#69
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quote: Originally posted by gamenaught I see it as an unreasonable burden on the poor. What about the kid that has to work to help support the family or watch over younger siblings while the parents are at work? Or the kids that will lose earnings that would have helped put themselves through post-high school vocational technical training? For an upper class kid, it could simply mean less time sunning by the pool. For those students, the real-world experience could be beneficial. But for poorer kids, it will put them further behind.

I suspect that the number of hours wouldn't be that high. If this particular issue is your only objection to the program, you could set up provisions for the duty to be waved when the student could demonstrate financial hardship and show that he is making a good faith effort to work and alleviate that hardship in his spare time.

	01-02-2004 12:24									#70
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And double whammy: Low income jobs lost because of workers displaced by free labor.

So to sum it up, we have forced servitude, a heavily increased burden on the poor, and job losses for low-income unskilled workers.

Incredible.

	01-02-2004 12:40									#71
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This is nothing but a non-military draft, if mandatory.

	01-02-2004 12:57									#72
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Damn, I was late to this thread. People saying this is unconstitutional are, I'm sorry, ****ing morons. This isn't unconstitutional in the slightest. And the way he is doing it is by controlling federal funds (ie, do this or we take 5% of federal funding on education away... perfectly Constitutional, see South Carolina v. Dole).

I don't see it as a dumb idea, as long is isn't too much. It's just another school requirement (and really schools should take some class time out for this, IMO, but that is the state's decision).

	01-02-2004 14:00									#73
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All the anti-Kerry hyperbole is not substantiated by any solid arguments. There's nothing unconstitutional here.


I'm still cheering for Kerry.

	01-02-2004 15:20									#74
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Thats right kids! You get to paint old people's houses for liberty! Wash off marina piers for justice! Pick up littering scumbag's junk for the American way!

GOOODDD BEEELEESSSSS AMMMMEERRRRICAAAA!

But at least he's not Bush right!? Because Bush is bad, and wait, Kerry voted for that Iraq thing, You see Bush made the PATRIOT.... wait, Kerry voted for that too. Ah, well.

	01-02-2004 15:32									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller the problem is that for some fields, like science you do most of your acheivements between the ages of 20-30

What? Most don't start until 30.

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller you won't be doing much until you are 23, and you will be ~30 before you are doing well

18 for graduation of HS, and add 8 years more (4 years for a BS and 4 years for a PhD), and you will be 26 before you start, but you can't be on your own yet for most of the time.

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller that is just too slow

That's because there's lots to learn.

	01-02-2004 16:31									#76
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Odin -

quote: It ammuses me when people ignore the Elastic Clause.

Where did you find "the elastic clause" in the Constitution?

Imran -

quote: People saying this is unconstitutional are, I'm sorry, ****ing morons. This isn't unconstitutional in the slightest. And the way he is doing it is by controlling federal funds (ie, do this or we take 5% of federal funding on education away... perfectly Constitutional, see South Carolina v. Dole).

You can't even find the word education in the Constitution and you think the feds can collect taxes for it, hand the money out, and then with hold it if we all don't do as told? Pray tell, where in the Constitution did you find all this power? And you cite what sounds like a very recent SCOTUS case, whoopie! The courts have been damn near ignoring the Constitution for decades when it comes to expanding federal power. How about a case from long ago when this country was new? Was it Marbury v Madison in which Marshall and the court said Congress cannot exercise an enumerated power to create unenumerated powers? Hell, Kerry wants Congress to exercise an unenumerated power to create another unenumerated power.

quote: I don't see it as a dumb idea, as long is isn't too much. It's just another school requirement (and really schools should take some class time out for this, IMO, but that is the state's decision).

Oh, now it's the state's decision?

	01-02-2004 18:22									#77
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This has the potential to be a really good program, if instituted correctly. That's a big "if", but props to Kerry for having the balls and vision to even suggest an idea like this.

And a big to all the high school kids whining about having to possibly help out their communities in the future...

	01-02-2004 18:28									#78
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quote: Originally posted by gamenaught What about the kid that has to work to help support the family or watch over younger siblings while the parents are at work? Or the kids that will lose earnings that would have helped put themselves through post-high school vocational technical training? For an upper class kid, it could simply mean less time sunning by the pool. For those students, the real-world experience could be beneficial. But for poorer kids, it will put them further behind.

Hey, maybe you didn't read the part about how a poor kid can volunteer for two years of service and then get a free higher education...

	01-02-2004 18:45									#79
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Why can't people make threadtitles that are a)relavant to the case being discussed, b) not insulting, and c)shows a level of maturity.

	01-02-2004 18:46									#80
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Kerry is a commie!

	01-02-2004 18:48									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Why can't people make threadtitles that are a)relavant to the case being discussed, b) not insulting, and c)shows a level of maturity.

Well, keep in mind the thread starter is 16, I believe.

	01-02-2004 18:49									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Well, keep in mind the thread starter is 16, I believe.

Ok but a and b still apply do they not?

	01-02-2004 19:01									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten This has the potential to be a really good program, if instituted correctly. That's a big "if", but props to Kerry for having the balls and vision to even suggest an idea like this. And a big to all the high school kids whining about having to possibly help out their communities in the future...

I agree to everything Drake just said.

	01-02-2004 19:04									#84
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Erm, me too.

	01-02-2004 19:05									#85
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Repent.

The end is nigh.

	01-02-2004 19:07									#86
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Although, I'm waiting for the obvious offshoot of the constitutional arguments that homework violates the 13th Ammendment.

	01-02-2004 19:27									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Btw, what Kerry is asking does violate the Constitution. Not only is there no power for the feds to be involved with education which was a state issue, there is no power for the feds to compel "national service" except for raising armies - and they didn't mean an army of social workers.

Where in the constitution is conscription legalized? Even if Kerry's proposal isn't unconstitutional, that certainly is. In other words, it's the opposite of what you said.

quote: Do you have quotes or evidence that those who wrote the ammendment in the firstplace interpreted it that way? Otherwise you seem to really be advocating an absurd level of judicial activism.

What does it matter what they thought? Unless I was grossly misinformed in my US Govt class, all laws are constantly interpreted and reinterpreted by the courts. The right to privacy wasn't considered a part of the amendment until the 1960s. Why can't the right to education be added now? I'm not necessarily advocating that it should be, but just saying that there is certainly precedent for doing such things. In any case, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with judicial activism.

	01-02-2004 19:33									#88
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quote: Repent. The end is nigh.

For heaven's sake, I'm not that bad, am I?

	01-02-2004 20:15									#89
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All this is is an extension of already existing programs in some localities (as shi states) by making federal money available to fund them.

As for the prorams themselves-thankfully I never had to do this- my service was fully voluntary.

The things if for community services to figure out how to use so many damned kids. Proably the time requirements might be something like 50 hours or so: i know they are like that in variou schools that already have these requirements here in NYC. Actualy, I know of one school that ofr it students in politics they also have to work on a political campaing of their choosing.

	01-02-2004 20:19									#90
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All young persons must join the KERRY JUGEND! You must train as the supreme government tells you. You must work as the supreme government tells you. You must help whom the supreme government tells you. You must think as the supreme government tells you. Forget your families, forget all other politics, there is no future but that Great Leader Kerry will give youe! All hail Kerry and the KERRY JUGEND!