01-02-2004 20:43									#91
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quote: Hey, maybe you didn't read the part about how a poor kid can volunteer for two years of service and then get a free higher education...

I read it. I said vo-tech. Not college.

And for college, it isn't free if you have to work two years for it.

Plus, 4 years of tuition for 2 years of labor is not a good deal when you consider how relatively cheap tuition is for many state colleges – particularly those that have free or nearly-free tuition because of lottery funds.

	01-02-2004 21:08									#92
	Put an end to popups!

While I abhore the idea of compulsory service, this:

quote: four years of college tuition in exchange for two years of national service.

seems like a great idea. The government pays for people to go to college and in return they serve the country.

	01-02-2004 21:33									#93
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gamenaught,

I am not sure which college you went too, or if you are even old enough to have gone to college, but besides the local community college the average instate tuition is 8,000-15,000 dollars a year.

So no college is not free or next too free. If that was the case why do poorer people whine about it not being accesable?

And who said we can't make those 2 years of service vocational in nature? The highshcoolers would have to be unskilled but for two years of full time service I am sure you will pick up more than a few useful skills. And vocational schools are damned expensive if you start talking about mechanics and the like.

	01-02-2004 21:40									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What? Most don't start until 30. 18 for graduation of HS, and add 8 years more (4 years for a BS and 4 years for a PhD), and you will be 26 before you start, but you can't be on your own yet for most of the time. That's because there's lots to learn.

you start before you get your PHD

for the most part after a year (on average) of grad school

also the PHD takes on average 5 years in physics, not sure about other science fields (this is in the US)

and I agree that there is a lot to learn (I am 2 years into a physics PHD), but it still doesn't stop it from being slow

JonMiller

	01-02-2004 21:40									#95
	Suffering from ads?

Btw those of you using the stupid Kerry Jugund analogy (and I hate Kerry), you need to know something about history before using it in satire.

The Hitler Youth was the Nazi verion of the Boy Scouts.

What you are looking for is the Riech Labor Service (RAD), or Reichsarbeitsdienst. After gymnasium all youth had to serve a stint in the RAD unless they had a military/education waver.

So modify your trolls accordingly.

	01-02-2004 21:50									#96
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I don't like the idea Kerry is proposing...

another thing about Kerry that pisses me off: he's taken a page out of the Dean playbook, complaining about "special interests" when a non-partisan study came out showing Kerry, in the last 15 years, has taken more money from lobbyists and PAC's than ANY OTHER SENATOR!

anyone but Bush... but please, not Kerry or LIEberman...

	01-02-2004 21:59									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't like the idea Kerry is proposing... another thing about Kerry that pisses me off: he's taken a page out of the Dean playbook, complaining about "special interests" when a non-partisan study came out showing Kerry, in the last 15 years, has taken more money from lobbyists and PAC's than ANY OTHER SENATOR! anyone but Bush... but please, not Kerry or LIEberman...

So, Sava, why do you hate Jewish people?

	01-02-2004 21:59									#98
	Tired of ads?

quote: gamenaught, I am not sure which college you went too, or if you are even old enough to have gone to college, but besides the local community college the average instate tuition is 8,000-15,000 dollars a year.

quote: Tuition and fees at major universities are compiled annually by the National Association of State Universities and Land-Grant Colleges. The data come from surveys each school completes. Nationwide, tuition and fees average $4,100 for the upcoming year, said Cheryl Fields, the association's public affairs director.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/6556428.htm Aug. 18, 2003

And that is BEFORE grants, etc.

	01-02-2004 22:04									#99
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quote: So no college is not free or next too free.

quote: In Some States, Free Tuition Is Already Here

http://www.freehighered.org/dig.html

	01-02-2004 22:05									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior So, Sava, why do you hate Jewish people?

not anymore than any one else

	01-02-2004 22:48									#101
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Perhaps a source I don't have to register to use.

Not to attack that one, I just don' t like registering to every website on the web.

	02-02-2004 00:02									#102
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wow. a great idea from a democrat. go Kerry!

	02-02-2004 00:05									#103
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quote: you think the feds can collect taxes for it, hand the money out, and then with hold it if we all don't do as told? Pray tell, where in the Constitution did you find all this power?

Um... very easily.

16th Amendment (right to collect income tax). It is not unconstitutional to charge 90% income tax on everyone. And where should all that money go? Is there anything in the Constitution which says the Congress MUST spend that money on anything? If the government can collect money, it must also be able to give it back out, right? And there is nothing in the Constitution saying Congress is prohibited from giving it to certain states on the basis on their choices.

In view of the 16th Amendment, I challenge you find somewhere in the Constitution saying Congress can't give the money out in any way it wishes. Nothing in the document says Congress can't pick and chose which states to give money to based on general revenues it has gotten.

quote: Oh, now it's the state's decision?

Always has been. The states will impliment it, Kerry will just threaten a small part of education funding.


BESIDES, what you think is Constitutional is 100% irrelevent. What the SCOTUS thinks and will rule, is.

	02-02-2004 00:08									#104
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quote: BESIDES, what you think is Constitutional is 100% irrelevent. What the SCOTUS thinks and will rule, is.

thats true and the Borkian idealogy of Rehnquist, Scalia, Thomas, and others will shut this down, especially so long after 9/11 and the spirit of 9/11 that inspired this, has largely passed.

	02-02-2004 00:23									#105
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I really hate this idea.

But VOLUNTARY VOLUNTARY VOLUNTARY service to pay for college would be great.

	02-02-2004 00:24									#106
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I agree that this is probably not unconstitutional, but I still don't think it's a particularly good idea. Quite frankly, the people who will do good volunteer work are the ones who want to, and those people are already doing it.

	02-02-2004 00:43									#107
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I don't get it. The way I read it, you would do some sort of community service for "x" amount of time, being compensated during the service itself (i.e. board and whatnot) then, afterwards receiving a two- or four-year college education partially or completely paid for, depending on where you go.

Tell me, how does this hurt poor people? How does this add up to slavery or involuntary servitude? Last time I checked, slavery and involuntary service meant no sort of compensation whatsoever. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

Gatekeeper

	02-02-2004 00:46									#108
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Well, Gatekeeper, it can be slavery and you're still compensated.

If I took you and forced you to plow my field, then afterwards decided to give you five bucks for your trouble, would that not be involuntary servitude?

	02-02-2004 00:49									#109
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That's a piss-poor comparison. Keep it in the realm of what Kerry is proposing.

	02-02-2004 00:50									#110
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I think you're reading it wrong. There is the option to do two years of service for four years of college, but there is also mandatory service as a graduation requirement for high school.

	02-02-2004 00:52									#111
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The way I read it, Kerry would Federalize a program similar to Maryland's, in which order to recieve a diploma at a public high school once must complete a certain number of hours of community service. (which is then verified by the school in a bureaucratic matter which takes up teachers time and yet still doesn't stop loopholes). Kerry would then institute a seperate program in which people could volunteer for two years of national service in exchange for having their tuition payed.

	02-02-2004 00:54									#112
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Of course, a better overall approach might be to simply better-fund the AmeriCorps program. That seems to have all the aspects of Kerry's idea without the "forced volunteerism" part that seems to have many climbing walls in this thread.

Gatekeeper

	02-02-2004 00:57									#113
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I agree. I just don't see a bunch of *****y teenagers as ideal, or even helpful, "volunteers".

	02-02-2004 01:03									#114
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True, but that's assuming all teens would be upset with Kerry's idea of volunteerism. It's quite possible that if their service could be tailored to something they're taking a life interest in — the list is endless — it wouldn't be so bad, attitude-wise.

I know that if I had been given the chance to volunteer in HS to help out at any level of journalism in exchange for free or reduced college tuition, I would've jumped at it.

Gatekeeper

	02-02-2004 01:04									#115
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quote: The way I read it, Kerry would Federalize a program similar to Maryland's, in which order to recieve a diploma at a public high school once must complete a certain number of hours of community service. (which is then verified by the school in a bureaucratic matter which takes up teachers time and yet still doesn't stop loopholes). Kerry would then institute a seperate program in which people could volunteer for two years of national service in exchange for having their tuition payed.

to graduate in the philly public school system, you got to do 80 hours of community service.

	02-02-2004 01:06									#116
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The thing is, the mandatory service in no way reduces your college tuition. I think the service for tuition plan is fantastic, I just disagree with the other component.

	02-02-2004 01:09									#117
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell I really hate this idea. But VOLUNTARY VOLUNTARY VOLUNTARY service to pay for college would be great.