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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
We asked for nothing in return until we were attacked on 9/11. We then asked for Germany's support. What did we get? We got a German election campaign based on anti-Americanism. Our president was bashed, not by the lunatic fringe of Germany, but by the German government itself!!!!!!! Then, when push came to shove at the UN, Germany is the leader (with France) of the opposition to the US. |
Excuse me Ned, but you are a complete ignorant. Your country got support from both France and Germany after September eleventh, and we are still present and very active in both Afghanistan and Kosovo. What we didn't support, was your conquest in Iraq, which had absolutely nothing to do with your war on terrorism.
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Such actions are not worthy of an ally, a friend or a country that owes us so much. |
Apparently you don't want allies. Those are entitled to have their own opinion. Your present administration wants vassals, that's all. Go look for them elsewhere.
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There is a saying, is there not, that no good deed goes unpunished. Well Germany has shown the truth of that statement -- in spades. |
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Tripledoc
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The Marshall Plan did very little for the German Economy.
Overall it made a lot of European nations dependent on spareparts for the machines the Americans brought over.
As for defending Europe against Communism this is a matter of contention. Did Europe want to be saved from Communism in the first place? Was it not initially the Americans who dropped the first nuclear devices, and forced USSR to follow suit. Was it not Kennedy who demanded a further expansion to the missile programme when America was already far ahead? Was it not America which placed medium distance nuclear missiles in Turkey threatening the Soviet oil supply, forcing Russia to respond in Cuba. Was it not so that the American army's maneuvres in 1984 were made with such deliberate realism that the Soviets believed that Reagan would launch an attack.
Capitalism was a perilous partner.
Regarding America supporting Germany for free, need I remind people that the stationing of US troops was financed by the Germans through socalled offset payments.
Need I explain that the war in Vietnam caused Nixon to abandon Bretton Woods, thereby forcing the price of oil causing a severe crisis in Europe.
Capitalism was an expensive partner.
Is it any wonder that the USSR held on to their territories for so long in order to prevent an attack from an aggressive American foreign policy.
After America was attacked Germany and other European countries pledged full support in the war against terrorism. Subsequently troops was sent to Afghanistan to install some semblance of order there.
Now with the institution of Guantanamo and the invasion of Iraq i am afraid that America has severely overstepped and entirely lost its sense of mission.
The Germans have seen such behavior before.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:33
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repealed? the state ceased to exist, new constitution, inhumane laws repealed!
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Monk
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I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:33
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Hi Ned,
I guess you're right that the good men and women who fought on our side in WWII deserve all the credit they can get. I'm not going to under-estimate the significance of Marshall aid and other initiatives and neither should anybody else. However you still owe an explanation of why it logically follows from this fact that later generations of Germans or anybody else should automatically approve of the decisions of the U.S government. A good deal of people, many of them non-Americans, might have saved Germany and its Lebensraum from nazism, but just because George W. Bush is their countryman doesn't mean he's entitled to my gratitude. That is being consistent, because if I subscribed to your view, I'd not only have to approve of the Americans but also begin hating the Germans and the Russians for the dangers they once posed to mankind.
It appears as though you're still sending the entire people of Germany to hell because of their narrowly elected government and the ingratefulness of some. I think your logical fallacy lies with the fact that you regard a country as you'd regard a person. Accepting that premise, it's only natural that doing a favour back in time should be returned with some favours today. The problem, however, is that you can't view the world like that. You can't go from "Hey, the gov't of Germany doesn't like us" to "Let's condemn the Germans in general".
Furthermore, I'm still especially curious as to how you're going to substantiate your claim that the Germans hate the U.S for liberating the country from the Nazis.
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Comrade Tassadar
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Monk: What is that thing in your avatar?!
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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by mrmitchell
If I walked up to you and yelled "KILL ME DAMNIT! ****ING KILL ME!" would that make killing me any less of a crime? |
The basis of all law is that your rights end where another begin, if someone wants you to kill them, you are not violating their rights, and thus it is fine.
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Monk
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I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Monk: What is that thing in your avatar?! |
It's the exceptional Swedish actor Ernst-Hugo Jähregaard as viewed from the bottom of a toilet in the Danish mini-series "The Kingdom".
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Monk
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I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Monk
...because if I subscribed to your view, I'd not only have to approve of the Americans but also begin hating the Germans and the Russians for the dangers they once posed to mankind. |
Just to clarify that, it's not that I don't generally approve of the United States. It's just that my approval is based on other things than events dating back fifty years.
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by Monk
I'm not going to under-estimate the significance of Marshall aid and other initiatives and neither should anybody else. |
Why perpetuate a lie? The Marshall help was blatant imperialism. The Wirtshcaftwunder in Germany had nothing to do with the Marshall aid. In fact the money (goods really) spent would have been used better if Great Britains debt was liquidated instead. Hoever this was not an option, becasue then Britain might have had the option of becoming the clearing house of European trade again.
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It appears as though you're (NED) still sending the entire people of Germany to hell because of their narrowly elected government and the ingratefulness of some.
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The vast majority of Germans opposed the war, as did the people of Spain, Italy, Poland, England and presumably other nations as well.
The American government is not even democratically elected.
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04-02-2004 04:18
I will tell you Russia would like to see nothing more than NATO collapse 
Thanks to WWII you became the dominant superpower so don't pretend you have been completely selfless. Besides, it is outside of your or my lifetime, so no one owes you sh*t...
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