03-02-2004 17:17									#1
	Religionists - If Your Deity Was Proven To Be Unreal, How Would You React? Got spare money?

Well how would you?

Let us put aside the why, hows and whatfors...
Just imagine whatever deity/cosmic order you follow and all it's attendant dogma was proven to be unreal...

Exactly how would you react and what would you do?

I have asked this question on fundementalist sites, and seen some scary answers.
I am interested to see what crops up here...

So fire away!

	03-02-2004 17:31									#2
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Could you cut and paste some of these answers?

(this question does not apply to me, so I can't answer you in any meaningful way)

	03-02-2004 17:32									#3
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I have a backup religion for just that situation.

	03-02-2004 17:40									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Could you cut and paste some of these answers? (this question does not apply to me, so I can't answer you in any meaningful way)

The fundies, being the craven bunch they are, have deleted my account and threads from the site in question.

It seems the evidence of my logic victories over their dogma was too much to bear.

The answers I recall go along the lines of:

"I would kill myself."
"I would get an gun and kill other people."
"I would steal and murder, since their is no higher punishment."

Seems these types are walking a fine line....

	03-02-2004 17:44									#5
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DaShi, is there room for two in your spare religion?

Otherwise I'd just have to go back to worshipping celebrities for the wonders that they perform and the great deeds through which they advance the human race.

	03-02-2004 17:52									#6
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If you genuinely believe and have faith in that belief the deity then exists and is real in your mind. So it cannot be disproved because it exists in your reality, even if in no-one else's.

That's a bit difficult for those who feel a need to be in with the herd and follow a mass religion, rather than a personal belief system, hence the reaction from your fundie friends.

So I can't actually answer your question because it doesn't arise for me.

	03-02-2004 17:56									#7
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV If you genuinely believe and have faith in that belief the deity then exists and is real in your mind. So it cannot be disproved because it exists in your reality, even if in no-one else's.

I guess that's a rational way to address delusion.

Good enough concept, for the individual.

	03-02-2004 18:15									#8
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Religious belief provides a behavioural framework for the individual. Active atheism or agnosticism provide the same result and are indistinguishable from belief in a deity for all practical purposes.

Lack of belief in anything much suggests a sufficient level of apathy to merit persecution for being useless.

	03-02-2004 18:18									#9
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Except that atheism is on firm logical ground - Occam's razor

	03-02-2004 18:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Religious belief provides a behavioural framework for the individual. Active atheism or agnosticism provide the same result and are indistinguishable from belief in a deity for all practical purposes.

It's odd that religionists seek to bring atheism down to the level of the creed and dogma, in some kind of attempt to level their imagined 'playing field'.

It does not work this way.

It is suggested that a dictionary is employed here.
As atheism is an 'anti-belief, not a belief in itself.

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Lack of belief in anything much suggests a sufficient level of apathy to merit persecution for being useless.

That smacks of fanatic thought.

I would say I am close to the rationale of believing in nothing.
Is there something worth believing in?

So, how does being unattached to the herd make one 'useless'?

Please explain.

I have achieved much in my 30 years of life, and continue to do so.
And I hasten to add - without any help from a sheep-herding dogmatic lifestyle.

And I would like to see anyone's attempts at persecution for my mindset.

That would be amusing.

	03-02-2004 18:37									#11
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I would rape and pillage the countryside.

	03-02-2004 18:37									#12
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Even the trees and haystacks?

	03-02-2004 18:40									#13
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Kill annoying trolls that start threads that start with the Word Religionists in the title very painfully.

Last edited by DinoDoc on 03-02-2004 at 18:47

	03-02-2004 18:49									#14
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Too bad for you, sir.

Anyone who knows me will attest that my threads are always started with an honest demeanour.

I leave trolling to the young, foolish and ignorant.
And those who are unseemingly precious about the wording of thread titles.

	03-02-2004 18:51									#15
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Well, it's a great honor to know I am evil enough to merit an -ism. Now I have at last joined the illustrious ranks of Communism, McCarthyism, and Anachronism. Hooray.
Anyway, this is a pretty stupid question. God is the ultimate immeasurable quantity. To ask how we would react if we "knew" anything about him is like asking what we'd do if the sun turned into a giant apricot. Too hypothetical to bother with. With that said, I suppose I would continue living the same way I do now, but without church. I find a religious/ethical life makes me happier anyway.

	03-02-2004 19:02									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Well, it's a great honor to know I am evil enough to merit an -ism. Now I have at last joined the illustrious ranks of Communism, McCarthyism, and Anachronism. Hooray. Anyway, this is a pretty stupid question. God is the ultimate immeasurable quantity. To ask how we would react if we "knew" anything about him is like asking what we'd do if the sun turned into a giant apricot. Too hypothetical to bother with. With that said, I suppose I would continue living the same way I do now, but without church. I find a religious/ethical life makes me happier anyway.

Please read my first post.

If you cannot get away from the unprovable aspects of your creed for a moment, that is hardly my fault.

I merely pose a question.

And the lack of proof for any deity is just as compelling as the so-called proof in favour.

	03-02-2004 19:06									#17
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Too bad for you, sir. Anyone who knows me will attest that my threads are always started with an honest demeanour. I leave trolling to the young, foolish and ignorant. And those who are unseemingly precious about the wording of thread titles.

It's about time you showed those religionists that you're better than them.

	03-02-2004 19:11									#18
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I merely want to make people think about what they claim to believe in.

	03-02-2004 19:14									#19
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I get it. Then they'll see that you're right, and they're wrong. The losers.

	03-02-2004 19:15									#20
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling It's odd that religionists seek to bring atheism down to the level of the creed and dogma, in some kind of attempt to level their imagined 'playing field'. It does not work this way. It is suggested that a dictionary is employed here. As atheism is an 'anti-belief, not a belief in itself.

You need a better dictionary. Believing there is no god is just as much a belief as believing there is one. Spare me the logical arguments about atheism - whether someone actually understands them (most apparently don't) still does not make them more than props used to support a chosen belief.

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling That smacks of fanatic thought. So, how does being unattached to the herd make one 'useless'?

I am just as critical of those who mindlessly follow a mass organised religion without question as those who have no belief in anything. A lack of belief, religious or otherwise, implies an inability to aspire to any state and therefore a lack of motivation, hence 'useless'. Someone who is motivated to act with intent has a belief that their actions will bring about a result. Belief in one thing tends to bring about belief in other areas.

	03-02-2004 19:40									#21
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV You need a better dictionary. Believing there is no god is just as much a belief as believing there is one.

I have the best, the Oxford edition.

Your taciturn wording of the issue is true if looked at a certain way, but I am speaking of the actual foci of a belief system.

In this case the deity.

I seek not to discuss the meaning of a basic English language word that I suspect we both know the meaning of. Like any religionist, you seek to drag the argument into the realms of circumstantial minutae, something I stated was not the thread's actaul topic.

If you seek to ask if gods exist or not, be a good chap and start a thread on the matter, please.

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Spare me the logical arguments about atheism -

You seem to have spared yourself all manner of logic, beforehand.

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV whether someone actually understands them (most apparently don't) still does not make them more than props used to support a chosen belief.

This is misleading, and you know it.
It seems that religionists cannot abide the notion that they are akin to a pariah figure, and seek to imbue all with their own herding instinct.

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV I am just as critical of those who mindlessly follow a mass organised religion without question as those who have no belief in anything. A lack of belief, religious or otherwise, implies an inability to aspire to any state and therefore a lack of motivation, hence 'useless'.

I could argue that those sheep who have no free will are useless.

Seems to me you are aiming at the sloths and losers of our societies, something I would indeed admire. But be aware that not every person bereft of belief is a addled hippy or lowlife.

A cleanly mind is an efficient one.

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Someone who is motivated to act with intent has a belief that their actions will bring about a result. Belief in one thing tends to bring about belief in other areas.

Scorn for the flock is also a great motivator, and not the only one.

I suggest you could take that on board.

	03-02-2004 20:10									#22
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling I merely want to make people think about what they claim to believe in so that I can prove that I'm right and they're wrong.

	03-02-2004 20:26									#23
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Zounds!

MrFun is taking liberties (and who isn't these days?) with quoted material, unless my eyes are tricked by some spell?


Where exactly have I raised a banner for or against any person's creed here?

	03-02-2004 20:29									#25
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Care to tackle the thread question, MrFun?

	03-02-2004 20:36									#26
	Re: Religionists - If Your Deity Was Proven To Be Unreal, How Would You React? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Well how would you? Let us put aside the why, hows and whatfors... Just imagine whatever deity/cosmic order you follow and all it's attendant dogma was proven to be unreal... Exactly how would you react and what would you do?

I believe in God, and I also believe in Jesus Christ, who was the prophet of God (allegorically Son of God).

So if this was proven to be untrue, I would have to seriously reassess myself, and find some other meaningful basis for some of the values that I treasure.

Without question, Jesus Christ was one of the greatest of all people to have ever existed in the history of human history, and it's because of the way he taught the fundamental values, that if faithfully observed, would have greatly improved human society.

	03-02-2004 20:39									#27
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling I seek not to discuss the meaning of a basic English language word that I suspect we both know the meaning of. Like any religionist, you seek to drag the argument into the realms of circumstantial minutae, something I stated was not the thread's actaul topic.

I have a number of objections to your post, not least the assumption that I am a religionist. More to the point your thread question is inevitably about the meaning of belief, something you now wish to avoid discussing.

I do not feel inclined to pursue a debate where you are redefining parameters as you go. I believe that to be pointless.

	03-02-2004 20:39									#28
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV You need a better dictionary. Believing there is no god is just as much a belief as believing there is one. Spare me the logical arguments about atheism - whether someone actually understands them (most apparently don't) still does not make them more than props used to support a chosen belief.

Actually, atheism is on firm logical ground until someone manages to prove it false. Just like the claim that "little unmeasurable green elves live on the surface of electrons" is false is also on firm logical ground. Atheism is merely the application of Occam's razor to religion - I see no compelling logical argument for the existence of a god, therefore there is no god.

	03-02-2004 20:48									#29
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Bullsh*t Skywalker and you know it. You cannot make an assumption and then use it to subsequently prove the assumption.

Edit: Hey - there is no autocensor of bullsh*t! Added my own * for the kiddies.

	03-02-2004 20:53									#30
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Anyone who knows me will attest that my threads are always started with an honest demeanour.

Yeah. Sure. Whatever.