04-02-2004 01:15									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Lack of proof is useless when you're dealing with the concept of a theoretically omnipotent and omniscient being. You can't possibly second-guess someone whose motives you'll never understand. There's no absolute proof of God either. Believe or not.

We could also apply your rant here to the easter bunny, santa or a giant cosmic cucumber.

Because they are not any more unfeasible than the deity you have chosen to support.

And your attempts to sound high and mighty also come to naught, sir.

You are merely guessing, using fabricated fantasy to address some great
macro-being you hold up as a reason to egotise over whomever you imagine as heretics.

quote: Originally posted by Elok Faith in an uncertainty is useful for salvation for many reasons, not least of which is that it encourages one to stop assuming one is the arbiter and judge of all truth, and thereby unclouds the eye of the soul.

Stop and read what you are saying.

I may as well try and convince you that Star Wars or Lord of the Rings is real, because that is how your grim intonements 'soul' and 'judge of all truth' sound to me.

Are you trying to convince me of something or are you really trying to sell me these fanciful ideas?

OK, prove there is a soul, and not a chemical mix in humanity.

Then come back and try hitting me with the sermon.

quote: Originally posted by Elok And don't give me the usual jibber-jabber about primitive superstition and the triumph of science. Science is the investigation of natural phenomena. It has little if anything to do with the supernatural. The confusion of religion and science in the past is not an error commited by me in the present, AFAIK. Feel free to accuse others of "creation science" (Maybe you weren't even going to mention that to me, in which case my apologies. I was just trying to head off a rant before it happened).

Ehm.

Yes, well your rant has taken full bloom.

You are right, science is indeed the trial and error testing and subsequent inscription of all around us.

I am unsure of what you are trying to tell me here, but you are hideously off-topic, by any means.

quote: Originally posted by Elok And if we do not die as frequently, our own spite and evil will merely drive us to living hell. I'll have to ask Ben, but I believe That Hideous Strength addressed the subject of eugenics/transhumanism at length.

Good for him.

But it matters not if it offends you, me or anyone, selective genetics and that it entails will eventually happen.
And the 'elites' of our society will take precedence, while the massed flock will be short lived.

I can imagine most religionists accepting that, as the use of science is an 'abomination' after all.

Now, I have indulged you.
Please stop dragging this off-topic.

Cheers!

	04-02-2004 01:16									#62
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quote: You can't possibly second-guess someone whose motives you'll never understand.

And that is precisely why I eat bacon when someone announces they have 'disproved' faith.

quote: I'll have to ask Ben, but I believe That Hideous Strength addressed the subject of eugenics/transhumanism at length.

I don't believe I have read the book, although there have been several Christians writing on these topics.

	04-02-2004 01:19									#63
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quote: And the 'elites' of our society will take precedence, while the flock will be short lived.

And among which group do you belong? The flock or the elites?

	04-02-2004 01:20									#64
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I would go insane and denounce all meaning in life, my hygiene would decline significantly and I'd become rude and abrupt w/ ppl I met on the street.

after a sufficient amount of self pity and woe I would turn to a life of crime.

u?

	04-02-2004 01:20									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Kill annoying trolls that start threads that start with the Word Religionists in the title very painfully.

curt--
Seriously, stop trolling people based on religious belief. It makes you look like a complete jackass.

	04-02-2004 01:28									#66
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oh, and a pizza with "everything" on it. Though i suppose id have to work up to that first.

	04-02-2004 01:28									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And that is precisely why I eat bacon when someone announces they have 'disproved' faith.

Basically akin to a ten-year-old covering his ears and yelling "I don't want to hear!"...

I tend also to scoff at sanctimonious types who are prone to loud announcements.

And those who smugly think they are the fount of all theological wisdom...

Ho-hum.

	04-02-2004 01:29									#68
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Gah. I am not trying to "sell" you anything, except that you are being just as narrow-minded and vindictive as the stereotyped creationists you make fun of. I commented on the use of faith as one hypothetical answer to the question of "why wouldn't god just wave and say hi?" that always gets asked.

By "judge of all truth" I'm referring to the ugly-atheist attitude you're copping right now-the ridicule of an old set of blindly-swallowed beliefs in favor of a new set of blindly-swallowed pseudobeliefs grounded in a perversion of existentialist philosophy that indulges man's desire for security just as much as the religion it mocks. The religious man feels snug in his certainty of God, whereas the atheist feels happy that, whatever happens, he will be able to look down his nose at the religious man, being Superior Modern Man.

	04-02-2004 01:31									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer curt-- Seriously, stop trolling people based on religious belief. It makes you look like a complete jackass.

Trolling?
Good grief.

I am not trolling posters here, I would not even consider that!

I am only reacting to posters who have a problem with any dissent from their ideas.

I am not out to offend.

	04-02-2004 01:33									#70
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quote: ten-year-old covering his ears and yelling "I don't want to hear!"...

People 'disproving' faith is nothing new under the sun. Now, if they had legitimate arguments, I would actually have to stop eating my bacon and do some real work.

Rhetoric just makes me even hungrier for bacon.

* Ben Kenobi gobbles another slice

It really is delicious. Do you want some curtsibling?

	04-02-2004 01:34									#71
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I have another question for religious people.

During the Holocaust there was a case of a group of Jews who led by their Rabbi decided to put God on trial. I think he/she/it was found guilty.

So my question is two fold.
Do you think this is within the faith, to put God on trial?
Would your religious beliefs be challanged if you were put into a concentration camp?

	04-02-2004 01:34									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Oh and Occam's razor is a decidedly crappy argument because one does not know the definition of 'simpler'. Just look at fundamental physics - introducing supersymmetry for example doubles the number of particles we have, so by your criterion should be thrown out. But all string theories need supersymmetry, so if string theory is right (and it is very elegant), then supersymmetry is right too. We are not in the position to say whether or not a universe without God is simpler or not, so we cannot use Occam's razor.

Thus, you would have no problem with me claiming that there are undetectable green elves dancing on electrons?

	04-02-2004 01:35									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Bullsh*t Skywalker and you know it. You cannot make an assumption and then use it to subsequently prove the assumption. Edit: Hey - there is no autocensor of bullsh*t! Added my own * for the kiddies.

My argument was not circular in any way.

	04-02-2004 01:35									#74
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Or how about ham and eggs - or better yet sausage and eggs - on the other hand chicken sausage is kinda fashionable with the foodies anyway - but less available than pork.

	04-02-2004 01:37									#75
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@Elok:

I see I hit a nerve.

One flaw in your painstakingly well-worded attack.

Pray tell at what point did I label myself the 'modern man' or even an 'atheist.'

And for your info, I am not about to accept your deeply flawed ideas of a macro-deity, based on your concerns for 'good taste' or pleasing the sensitive.

Neither am I about to change my tune to suit the massed flock. I merely asked a question, albeit a hypothetical one.
It seems that only 60% of the posters can actually understand plain English and answer the actual question.

Should I change to Pidgin English to make live easier?

Also!
You outrageously chide me for thinking I am superior, while the average religionist calls
the whole damned world sinful, and judges all on their narrow ideas of faith.

The hypocrisy is almost tangible, I'm sad to report.

	04-02-2004 01:38									#76
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I would steal lots of money and then create a life-size model of an ancient Viking ship. Then I would raid European cities and burn them down.

	04-02-2004 01:38									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc I have another question for religious people. During the Holocaust there was a case of a group of Jews who led by their Rabbi decided to put God on trial. I think he/she/it was found guilty. So my question is two fold. Do you think this is within the faith, to put God on trial? Would your religious beliefs be challanged if you were put into a concentration camp?

Please read Emile Fackenheim "to mend the world" on the challenge of the holocaust to religious beleif in general and to Jewish belief in particular. and the struggle with a post-holocaust theology. Also read most anything by Elie Wiesel.

I know several concentration camp survivors. They have a wide range of beliefs. Some are very pious - i think theyve all known anger with G-d. anger with G-d is a rather different question than what is being asked here.

	04-02-2004 01:41									#78
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quote: And don't give me the usual jibber-jabber about primitive superstition and the triumph of science. Science is the investigation of natural phenomena. It has little if anything to do with the supernatural. The confusion of religion and science in the past is not an error commited by me in the present, AFAIK. Feel free to accuse others of "creation science" (Maybe you weren't even going to mention that to me, in which case my apologies. I was just trying to head off a rant before it happened).

The word "supernatural" is one of the few one-word oxymorons in the English language. Nothing can exist that is not part of the universe (and hence nature), because the universe is the set of all that exists. If god is "supernatural", he doesn't exist

	04-02-2004 01:43									#79
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Thus, you would have no problem with me claiming that there are undetectable green elves dancing on electrons?

See youre asking about some PARTICULAR set of critters - like asking me if there is an old guy with a beard, who says "gays are evil" and who wants you to sing hymns. Different from struggling with eternity as a principle - what is eternal? is eternity compatible with will??? etc.

	04-02-2004 01:43									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi People 'disproving' faith is nothing new under the sun. Now, if they had legitimate arguments, I would actually have to stop eating my bacon and do some real work.

People thinking that a god is real is nothing new either, but it is getting rather stale.

Do you have a legitimate argument to prove your faith, or are you just restricted to an old book and lame humour?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Rhetoric just makes me even hungrier for bacon.

If you are trying to present yourself as creditable, you are not doing very well.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It really is delicious. Do you want some curtsibling?

Watch you don't choke.

No thanks, humble pie is a dish best served to those who are smuggest, eh?

	04-02-2004 01:44									#81
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So God is not infallible?

Does it not strip God of his authority if he/she/it is put on trial and found guilty?

This must effectively be the same as saying that God does not exist.

	04-02-2004 01:45									#82
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: And don't give me the usual jibber-jabber about primitive superstition and the triumph of science. Science is the investigation of natural phenomena. It has little if anything to do with the supernatural. The confusion of religion and science in the past is not an error commited by me in the present, AFAIK. Feel free to accuse others of "creation science" (Maybe you weren't even going to mention that to me, in which case my apologies. I was just trying to head off a rant before it happened). The word "supernatural" is one of the few one-word oxymorons in the English language. Nothing can exist that is not part of the universe (and hence nature), because the universe is the set of all that exists. If god is "supernatural", he doesn't exist

dont play word games - if i define "nature" as the world that is observable, or the world that is subject to natural law, then nature != to the set of all that exists - at least not by definition.

	04-02-2004 01:46									#83
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Well, looking back, I think I argued too aggressively, but at this point it doesn't matter. I'll just end on the note that I am not "the average religionist," though to be fair I did treat you as the "average atheist," albeit in your case it was judging by your conduct contrasted against a stereotype I have generally found to be true...

Okay, I'm going in proviso circles here. Let's leave it be. You've irritated me a bit much for me to revert to peaceful discussion; even if you did start this bickering, I'm still at fault for perpetuating it, and I'm a little too wound up to let it go. Let's resume the discussion when we're both ready to stop throwing insults.

	04-02-2004 01:50									#84
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@Elok:
I meant no insults, and yes things perhaps got over-heated.

No bad blood is intended...

So in the interests of good poster unity,
I wish to revert to the original question:

"If Your Deity Was Proven To Be Unreal, How Would You React?"

Now, folks, please concentrate on the meaning of the question, not the meanings behind it.

I am not attacking faith, just wanting to know human reactions, that's all.

	04-02-2004 01:51									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc So God is not infallible? Does it not strip God of his authority if he/she/it is put on trial and found guilty? This must effectively be the same as saying that God does not exist.

who says god has to be infallible??? stop acting like a fundie!!!!


a court holds according to its authority, not for all time

A court of jews putting G-d on trial(and could you provide a link please) , is not making a theological argument, or even claiming to prove god fallible by absolute criteria. They are saying that as far as THEY are concerned, judging as humans but using the principles G-d gave us, they cannot exonerate G-d.


The bible, an old book and yet a new one, says "shall not the judge of the earth do justice???" and also "where were you when I created Heaven and earth"

On the one hand, it IS appropriate for man to apply concepts of justice to G-d, and to do so harshly if necessary. On the other hand, G-d is radically other than man, and cannot be judged in ways appropriate to human beings. This, of course, is a contradiction. In wrestling with the contradiction, you MAY learn something about the eternal.

	04-02-2004 01:57									#86
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Ok so God was found guilty, put in jail, and now he is out on parole?

IŽll be watching him closely.

	04-02-2004 01:58									#87
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"During the Holocaust there was a case of a group of Jews who led by their Rabbi decided to put God on trial. I think he/she/it was found guilty."

I remember another story from the Holocaust. One Jew in a concentration camp saw another Jew offering up prayers of thanks to God. Suprised, he asked him what he could possibly have to be thankful for. He replied he was thankful that he was not like the people opressing him.


But for your question, Tripledoc, no Humans cannot judge God.

	04-02-2004 01:59									#88
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Can you gentlemen continue this sword fight on another thread?

	04-02-2004 02:00									#89
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What do you guys think about various brands of cream soda? I used to love A and W, the but their formula has been changed to absolute **** in recent years.

	04-02-2004 02:06									#90
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IBC cream soda is good, but over-priced. The best cream soda is Shasta IMO.