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MrBaggins
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Happiness just isn't as attractive for a CTP2 civ as it was for a Civ2 civ. Those WLTK days were great, and added some degree of strategic choice.
We certainly don't have to have just one set effect for all governments. Probably, the best approach is to have a few modifiers and options for celebration effects...
like...
FoodCoef
ProdCoef
CommCoef
Maybe something to counteract War Weariness penalties.. maybe even Empire Distance penalties?
While combinations of these would probably be just fine... any other ideas?
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Gilgamensch
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France
Jun 2002
time: 06:33
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The effects of the WLT*-day shall depend on the government in use.
Some ideas: (as extras)
Anarchie: 10% food
Monarchy: 10% food, -10% crime
Theocraty: 10% Food, -15% crime, maybe even +1 hapiness
Republic: 15% Food, -20% crime, 5% production
Democracy: 20% food, -20% crime, -10% polution.
and similar for the other government-types.
Idea behind, the effect shall make a little bit sense. If you are happy you are more willing to ignore bad 'influence'. Like under Theocraty, you would be even more proud of your gods.
Democracy, you would more ignore the stinking factory next to you 
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MrBaggins
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Interesting. And speaking of effects... perhaps an animation for a celebrating city... as a long term goal... like fireworks, or something. Maybe a sound effect when they first celebrate to.
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Gilgamensch
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France
Jun 2002
time: 06:33
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At least a graphical indication, like reversing colours or similar.
Anything else might be fairly lengthy to go through. Also how do you count first celebration? Is it first time under this government-type, or in general?
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MrBaggins
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When a city first goes above the happiness threshold, I'd say. It could still get annoying, even then I guess, if happiness fluctuated a bit. Perhaps just for the first time it celebrates in a game.
BTW... rather than reducing pollution (which you still MAYBE could have as a possible modifier, but I doubt it,) you should reduce the unhappiness caused by pollution, overcrowding, war, or so on.
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Gilgamensch
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France
Jun 2002
time: 06:33
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OK for me.
Actually another boni I was thinking about:
Under militaristic governments and being at war, reducing the maintenance cost of units, but no increase (or low) in food.
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MrBaggins
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Oh, and it might be just a *bit* controversial, but I'd like to see Entertainers pushed back from Drama to the Movie Palace tech... and Double entertainers back to cities with TV improvements.
Of course you'd need to have the sliding scale of crime thats been mentioned. We also, of course, need (pretty easy) methods of suppressing unrest/revolution... or the AI is screwed (and you'd probably want some settings in risks for values that the AI fudges happiness/unrest by too.)
So... for instance, drama would still have theatres, which increased happiness by 2, but also decreased unrest by 5-10... say... and the same with the other happiness improvements til TV.
This ensures that everyone needs (if they are doing things contrary to their government limits,) happiness improvements, like religious buildings, instead of relying on entertainers... which is all I do... pretty much (well.. that and Ramyana... EVERY damn time.)
Crime would become a real issue, rather than being something that was never below a certain level, because you always kept your cities above a certain riot level, with entertainers.
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Gilgamensch
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France
Jun 2002
time: 06:33
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not sure about this idea. I would rather say then (per entertainer):
Drama: +1 hapiness and -4% unrest
Movie: +2 hapiness and -8% unrest
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MrBaggins
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Yup.. but the problem is that drama comes VERY early. You can always afford to spare pop for entertainers... thus you never have happiness problems, if you keep your eyes on the nation manager (and you plan for government changes at all.) You might lose a bit of efficiency, but thats all.
I don't think drama and... entertainers... should be the omnipotent happiness solution that they currently are. Happiness is really only a concern when you're stretching way beyond your empire size limits, in my experience. You can always manage it, otherwise.
In Civ2... happiness was something you had to really consider... pretty much all the time.
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MrBaggins
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Maybe increase the number of them, but definitely increase their effect. Like... maybe... double.
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MrBaggins
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And I'm not sure why its a problem that excessive military cause unhappiness under a Democracy or Republic. There should be limitations to what those countries can do... with war.
Seems perfectly realistic to me, particularly if you provide alternate warlike governments.
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MrBaggins
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quote:
but definitely increase their effect. Like... maybe... double. |
Instead of having +2 happiness.. make it +4.. maybe +5.
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Gilgamensch
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France
Jun 2002
time: 06:33
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You mean increase the effect of the building but decrease the effect of the entertainer? Would make sense (also for the AI).
For the government type:
Why shall be there so strikt limits?
In the moment an example for it: US and not so much unhapiness (little bit differnt during Vietnam though).
Old times: Greek, they had the earliest Dem and still fought wars.
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MrBaggins
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Well.. Vietnam is a perfect example... a lot of unhappiness... War Weariness, not only because of a large military, but also being at war AND taking casualties.
There is obviously some opposition to whats gone on recently in Iraq, in the US, and if there were much higher body counts, then there would have been more serious problems.
I'm sure this was no different in even ancient "free societies"... people don't like their family members being at risk, by going to war, and especially don't like them dying.
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MrBaggins
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Correct... but War Weariness does effect the nation equally in CTP2... just as support is spread equally. This conversation is a bit moot, since we're changing CTP2, and not Civ2.
I just wanted to make a point about happiness being a concern (and hence a strategic CHOICE) in civ2... not that it was perfectly modelled in civ2
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Gilgamensch
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France
Jun 2002
time: 06:33
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Agreed it wasn't perfect in CIV2 as well as in CTP2.
I still see the human having to much advantage.
SO your idea of decreasing the effectivness of the entertainer quite ok, but OTH we shall maybe allow multiple buidlings.
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MrBaggins
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We could do... but isn't this the same as making the existing buildings more powerful?
Isn't it better to have:
Temple +5
than...
Shrine +2
Temple +3
The first way would reduce micromanagement... no?
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MrBaggins
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Actually, I think its the other way around:
AI's will typically build a whole set of improvements, when they would have been better off doing what the human was doing... building units, settlers and getting his public works economy going, while using entertainers to control happiness.
If you remove entertainers til mid-game, then the human can't use that trick to out-expand the AI, so much, since he'd have to build the happiness buildings, instead of just micromanaging entertainers.
Entertainers at mid-game make sense, since thats when pollution, and population overcrowding starts becoming a big unhappiness issue.
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Gilgamensch
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France
Jun 2002
time: 06:33
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Sorry long run, I meant the long run through the dark ages.........
But did we manage to teach the AI proper handling of Ent/Far/Scien/...?
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MrBaggins
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Plus... what makes you think that if the AI can't build one happiness building better than the human, that its any easier building two? Isn't that harder, instead?
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Gilgamensch
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France
Jun 2002
time: 06:33
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Not sure. I haven't looked close into the source, but if we give +5 the calculating is much harder, than just having a +2. With +2, each round a simple check:
Hap > 75, Ent := Ent -1
Hap > 73, don't do anything
Hap < 73, add Ent.
Ent > 1, build hapiness building.
With +5, it would make a difference.
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MrBaggins
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Its actually a bit more complicated than that.
You can use empire sliders in some cases... and aim for happiness wonders.
The first step is to not do things which will create big happiness issues in the first place, unless you have "surplus" hapiness in each city.
I.E.
- Don't conquer that extra city, when you're maxed out on empire size, and at the limit of your current happiness capability
- Don't excessively build units, if its causing WW. (We should include a WW impact value for each unit, so that defensive units have less impact, and the AI has a choice to build these without massive happiness impact.)
- Don't found a city if its too far away, and will have happiness penalties. If you've maxed out available land, then work on getting better transportation.. I.E. railroads, build up PW, and build a network.
- Build and keep an appropriate emergency fund able to rush buy an appropriate early happiness building.
Smart management needs to be more about preempting issues, and avoiding them, than reacting to them. This is the way a human works. If an AI is always reacting, rather than preempting and preparing, it will always be behind the 8-ball.
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05-02-2004 03:05
where have my thoughts been. 
. I found it always unrealistic that having just one city 'whining' about the army.
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