07-02-2004 12:36									#121
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The Russians and the Americans have a say in who becomes the President of the Ukraine?

Not directly, of course. But indirectly, by exerting the influence, yes.

	07-02-2004 12:41									#122
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Well, NYE. To judge from your discussion with Paiktis, your views are not alien to geopolitical idealism. Perhaps,we should address this point first, before going into more particular questions.

	07-02-2004 12:42									#123
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither So, the impression is that your influence in the former Soviet republics is being poached? Do I have that right? By the Americans? Do the Americans have more influence in any former Republics than Russia does? If they do, why?

Georgia, and Azerbaijan.

I don't know how successful we've been, but I do know that we're actively courting them.

This is why:

	07-02-2004 12:44									#124
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In this case, it really is "all about the oil".

	07-02-2004 12:55									#125
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That's funny, because I can relate, being from a minor (relatively) country smack between the super powers.

I guess I can see why Russians would be uneasy with developments. Your power has crumbled and the enemy is at the gates (practically).

What I would say though, is that the US (and the West in general) does not have to be your enemy anymore. Let the former Republics go. They will fumble around, they will seek friends elsewhere. It is only natural for them to do so when they live in the shadow of a nation of such massive potential.

Eventually, your economy will grow. Thus will your power. Canada is a captive of the US not because we like them and dislike Britain, rather we are close to them because we have no choice economically while at the same time we maintain ties with Europe. Similar basic political ideology doesn't hurt either. Close to 200 years of peace is nothing to sneer at.

It's a funny world, and people will do the most unexpected things. I really hope that Russia can wait for those unexpected things to happen. They will, as your economy grows and your neighbours see the fact that they can live better as your friends and forget the past. I hope.

It's not very pleasant if it goes the other way. It would be very unpleasant to be Canadian if we had not buried the hatchet with the Yanks.

	07-02-2004 12:56									#126
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk In this case, it really is "all about the oil".

To a large extent. Russia should destroy this damned pipeline project by hook or by crook.

Unfortunately, we are losing here big time.

	07-02-2004 12:58									#127
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Well, NYE. To judge from your discussion with Paiktis, your views are not alien to geopolitical idealism. Perhaps,we should address this point first, before going into more particular questions.

What woud you like to address about it?

	07-02-2004 13:04									#128
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I guess I can see why Russians would be uneasy with developments. Your power has crumbled and the enemy is at the gates (practically).

quote: What I would say though, is that the US (and the West in general) does not have to be your enemy anymore.

True, but the big game is still going on!

quote: Let the former Republics go.

They were let go. But this doesn't mean that Russia is not interested in whether these republics have a puppet government hostile to Russia or not.

	07-02-2004 13:05									#129
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What woud you like to address about it?

Do you recognize that a big geopolitical game is still going on?

	07-02-2004 13:08									#130
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I think the question is, why would a government friendly to us necessarily be hostile to you?

	07-02-2004 13:09									#131
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Do you recognize that a big geopolitical game is still going on?

Yes, but are you certain you know what game is actually being played?

	07-02-2004 13:13									#132
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond They were let go. But this doesn't mean that Russia is not interested in whether these republics have a puppet government hostile to Russia or not.

Why do you call them puppets?

	07-02-2004 13:18									#133
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I think the question is, why would a government friendly to us necessarily be hostile to you?

This tends to be so. Why? I don't know. Perhaps, it's because the former Soviet republics are not big enough for the two of us.

	07-02-2004 13:20									#134
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Do you recognize that a big geopolitical game is still going on?

Did I say anywhere that such games no longer happen? Recent events should put the lie the that, and those events have been between the good old club of liberal democracies.

quote: not alien to geopolitical idealism

And the 'all republics are out to get us' is...?

I'm sorry, but the need to defend trade rights with Latvia through a nuclear arsenal seems a little bit thin to me.

	07-02-2004 13:20									#135
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Yes, but are you certain you know what game is actually being played?

Not quite. But I am certain that an important game is being played.

	07-02-2004 13:22									#136
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond This tends to be so. Why? I don't know. Perhaps, it's because the former Soviet republics are not big enough for the two of us.

Or maybe they want very little to do with Russia til Russia learns how to behave when you don't get your way on every point?

I mean, come on, these are the victims of the Russian empire that are being discussed. Can you not see their POV?

	07-02-2004 13:25									#137
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why do you call them puppets?

OK, that was a bit of exaggeration. Of the former Soviet republics, only Georgia can be said to have a puppet government right now.

	07-02-2004 13:32									#138
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quote: I mean, come on, these are the victims of the Russian empire that are being discussed. Can you not see their POV?

Victims, my as$.
Then why now, when they are "free" and no longer belong to this evil empire of Russians, absolute majority of them live much, much worse than when they were "slaves"?

	07-02-2004 13:36									#139
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I think the question is, why would a government friendly to us necessarily be hostile to you?

That's how it always happens. You should better ask your administration about that.

	07-02-2004 13:37									#140
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Or maybe they want very little to do with Russia til Russia learns how to behave when you don't get your way on every point?

How do you want Russia to behave?? Russia behaved exceptionally well, by your standards, in the first half of 1990s. It's simply that, little by little, a sense of reality has been coming back to Russia.

quote: I mean, come on, these are the victims of the Russian empire that are being discussed. Can you not see their POV?

Of the former Soviet republics, only the Baltics can truely be regarded as victims of the Russian empire.

	07-02-2004 13:41									#141
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Vagabond, "whiners" is the proper word here, not "victims".

Last edited by Serb on 07-02-2004 at 14:06

	07-02-2004 13:42									#142
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Sorry, Vagabond, the trolls demand attention.

Serb, do most Russians live better now? Or does maybe it take time for things to work their course. I'm sure that standards of living went up markedly in 1921 over 1919, or NOT.

Still, you think that Ukrainians should thank Russia for the famine? Why don't you ask Savas what he thinks about the Russian empire. How about the average Pole?

I'm sure the many victims of the gulags, many of whom were NOT Russian, will thank you profusely for the past 80 years, or NOT.

	07-02-2004 13:42									#143
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Just in case if Saras will show up. Hi, buddy.

Attachment: ussr_flag.gif
This has been downloaded 25 time(s).

	07-02-2004 13:43									#144
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Of the former Soviet republics, only the Baltics can truely be regarded as victims of the Russian empire.

Countless millions of dead Ukrainians were not victims?

	07-02-2004 13:46									#145
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I seem to recall entire ethnic group or groups uprooted from the Crimea and transported to the East. 'To the East'. Good euphamism for death by labour in camps.

	07-02-2004 13:52									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Vagabond, "whiners" is the propers word here, not "victims".

No, Serb. We should concede that the Baltics are the victims.

	07-02-2004 13:53									#147
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Serb, do most Russians live better now?

Of course not. As well as absolute majority of peoples of former Soviet Union.

quote: Or does maybe it take time for things to work their course. I'm sure that standards of living went up markedly in 1921 over 1919, or NOT.

I think you don't the understand the problem, NYE. For most of the people of former SU, today life standards droped to level of 1919.

quote: Still, you think that Ukrainians should thank Russia for the famine?

They should thank themselves and weather. I can explain why, if you really wish (actually I doubt you wish. You already made up your mind about this issue.

quote: Why don't you ask Savas what he thinks about the Russian empire.

Savas? Who are this people?

quote: How about the average Pole?

I trust them less than Yanks. They born with hatred toward Russia in their veins. Still crying they didn't destroy us when they could.

quote: I'm sure the many victims of the gulags, many of whom were NOT Russian, will thank you profusely for the past 80 years, or NOT.

I'm sure many former citizens of SU, many of whom are NOT Russian consider their life in SU better than their current life.

	07-02-2004 13:56									#148
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond No, Serb. We should concede that the Baltics are the victims.

The Baltics were the only victims?

	07-02-2004 14:02									#149
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Russians believe everybody hates them, and are doubtful (to say the least) when told otherwise.

Americans believe everybody loves them, and are shocked (to say the least) when told otherwise.

The constrast is fascinating.

	07-02-2004 14:04									#150
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Countless millions of dead Ukrainians were not victims?

That was a horrible event among other horrible events. But the terror of the regime was applied uniformly to the whole Soviet Union. They didn't die just because they were Ukranians. It was because circumstances turned like that while governed by a cruel regime. It could have well been ethnic Russians in their place.