07-02-2004 14:04									#151
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I seem to recall entire ethnic group or groups uprooted from the Crimea and transported to the East. 'To the East'. Good euphamism for death by labour in camps.

It was during WW2 when this ethnic group joined nazi invaders (your enemy too, btw) in fight against our country.
I seem to recall a group of American citizens who had 1/16 of Japanese blood in their veins was uprooted from their lands and transported to the desert.
I seem to recall a group of Germans or people who had German origins were uroted from GB and transported to St. Jhon island.

In both of those cases those people never participated in military action against USA or GB, furthermore in first case there even wasn't a chance of Japanese invasion to US mainland. But they still were deported.
So, who is more evil? The guys who punish traitors who really shot in their back by joining the army of nazi invaders? Or the guys who punished people who could help the enemy somehow (sabotage, intellegence, perhaps).

	07-02-2004 14:08									#152
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Serb, one more time:

nye is Canadian.

Not American, not British, Canadian

The "I'm rubber, you're glue" argument simply dosen't apply.

	07-02-2004 14:09									#153
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The Baltics were the only victims?

The only clear-cut victims.

	07-02-2004 14:10									#154
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Oh, and for the record, I am ashamed of what my people did to American citizens of Japanese ancestry. Same goes for the genocide of the Amerinds.

The Bomb was fine.

	07-02-2004 14:13									#155
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Russians believe everybody hates them, and are doubtful (to say the least) when told otherwise. Americans believe everybody loves them, and are shocked (to say the least) when told otherwise. The constrast is fascinating.

By the way, in the times of the Soviet Union, Russians were more like Americans in this respect. Not exactly shocked, but quite astounded.

	07-02-2004 14:16									#156
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond That was a horrible event among other horrible events. But the terror of the regime was applied uniformly to the whole Soviet Union. They didn't die just because they were Ukranians. It was because circumstances turned like that while governed by a cruel regime. It could have well been ethnic Russians in their place.

But it wasn't Russians, and the crops of Russians were not seized to the point of starvation of the local population. The particular distinction of having all food stuffs seized so that one could resort to eating weeds, was the particular lot of the Ukrainians.

Some number of millions of them died as a consequence. 7 million, 10, more?

I can guarantee you one thing, no matter if the misery were more wide spread, which it was not, Ukrainians would owe no fealty to Russia that was not based on blood and compulsion.

You expect the decendants of the survivors to be inclined to be friendly? I would say that it will take some work to restore good relations, and i would say the onus is not on the Ukrainians.

	07-02-2004 14:20									#157
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Serb, one more time: nye is Canadian. Not American, not British, Canadian The "I'm rubber, you're glue" argument simply dosen't apply.

I see a connection here anyway.
Hi still live under rule of her majesty queen of UK. And btw, St. Jhon it's Canadian territory.

	07-02-2004 14:28									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Serb It was during WW2 when this ethnic group joined nazi invaders (your enemy too, btw) in fight against our country. I seem to recall a group of American citizens who had 1/16 of Japanese blood in their veins was uprooted from their lands and transported to the desert. I seem to recall a group of Germans or people who had German origins were uroted from GB and transported to St. Jhon island. In both of those cases those people never participated in military action against USA or GB, furthermore in first case there even wasn't a chance of Japanese invasion to US mainland. But they still were deported. So, who is more evil? The guys who punish traitors who really shot in their back by joining the army of nazi invaders? Or the guys who punished people who could help the enemy somehow (sabotage, intellegence, perhaps).

Well actually, Serb, in Canada we too interned people of Japanese descent. Some of them were Canadian citizens. Their property was confiscated, they were very prosperous, and sold for a pittance vs its actual worth. We plowed the money into destroyers and other glorious things.

In the mean time, the Japanese Canadians spent the war in camps, mostly in Alberta. They got to do productive things for the war effort, like grow sugar beets. After the war, I am fairly sure they were let go.

btw, most any Canadian who is asked will react with revulsion at what was done based on rascist stereotypes. Did I mention that sizable populations of Germans were required simply to change names form things like 'Berlin' to 'Kingston' during a large tussle with the German Empire?

So, there you go, Serb. We interned Japanese Canadians and then released them, our country has felt shame for that, and in fact has officially apologised.

7 or 10 million Ukrainians who found no release other than death, and their descendants, are waiting on Russia.

	07-02-2004 14:34									#159
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German immigrants were detained in Great Britain. Some of them were released actually, IIRC.

British born people of German descent were not bothered, AFAIK.

And any deportations to Newfoundland would be news to me. Possible, but unlikely. OTOH, many POWs were shipped over here, but not to Newfounland, rather through it as a major port on the Atlantic.

	07-02-2004 14:35									#160
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NYE, more shoking news for you, but in USSR, the people who cooperated with nazi and were deported because of this did returned to their land after the war.

	07-02-2004 14:35									#161
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither But it wasn't Russians, and the crops of Russians were not seized to the point of starvation of the local population. The particular distinction of having all food stuffs seized so that one could resort to eating weeds, was the particular lot of the Ukrainians.

OK, but Russians, lots of Russians, were repressed in a different way. I am not trying to justify that horrible event. What I try to say is that that event was not an act of imperial policy, but rather an act of the regime.

quote: Some number of millions of them died as a consequence. 7 million, 10, more?

Two million, I believe. The numbers figuring in the West tend to be highly exaggerated.

quote: You expect the decendants of the survivors to be inclined to be friendly?

They are no different in this repect from other victims of the repressions.

quote: I would say that it will take some work to restore good relations, and i would say the onus is not on the Ukrainians.

Do you seriously believe that current relations are bad because they are offended for the empire? Nothing can be further from the truth.

	07-02-2004 14:37									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I see a connection here anyway. Hi still live under rule of her majesty queen of UK. And btw, St. Jhon it's Canadian territory.

Actually, at the time it was not part of Canada. Newfoundland joined Confederation in 1949.

	07-02-2004 14:38									#163
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither British born people of German descent were not bothered, AFAIK.

I guess it's my mistake. Abot 74 000 foreign citizens (mostly German refuges who fleed to GB from nazi horrors) were deported.

	07-02-2004 14:47									#164
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond OK, but Russians, lots of Russians, were repressed in a different way. I am not trying to justify that horrible event. What I try to say is that that event was not an act of imperial policy, but rather an act of the regime. Two million, I believe. The numbers figuring in the West tend to be highly exaggerated. They are no different in this repect from other victims of the repressions. Do you seriously believe that current relations are bad because they are offended for the empire? Nothing can be further from the truth.

I'm not going to argue the numbers, at least you are reasonable enough to admit it happened. That is enough.

I would only ask you how you and yours would feel if the tables were turned, if it were your people who suffered 2 million (your number) dead in a government engineered famine. Would you care that the madmen killed some other people too?

No **** that would effect current relations. I would be shocked if it did not. It will take time, and examples of good will to overcome the past.

Russia is not going to get a free pass into the hearts and minds of the former subjects thorugh nuclear adventure. Rather, you will have to earn some good will by proving that the past is dead. Rattling your nuclear sabre is unlikely to make the former subjects think Russia is done with abusing them.

	07-02-2004 14:57									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I guess it's my mistake. Abot 74 000 foreign citizens (mostly German refuges who fleed to GB from nazi horrors) were deported.

What part of British born do you not understand? That would make them British subjects.

Deportations of German nationals (read not born in Britain) may very well have happened. I know for a fact that there were detentions. I wonder how many German nationals remained at large in the Soviet Union after June, 1941? Not many, I suspect.

It was common practice at the time, and still is I believe, to detain citizens of enemy nations during time of war. It is usual to find a way to look after them if you can't ship them back to where they came from. Perhaps not all can be shipped back.

btw, what happened to the Russian born, but ethnically German people of the Don region?

	07-02-2004 15:03									#166
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NYE, you still don't get it. We don't need our nuclear sabre to destroy former Soviet republics. If we turn off the switch (electricity, gas, oil) they will die without a single shot from our side. They do not pay us a single buck for our electricity, oil, gas and while foolish enough to anger and to insult us. Everything has its limits, even Russian patience.

	07-02-2004 15:10									#167
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All I"m hearing is a massive ego needing stoking.

You are serious that Russia supplies electricity, oil, and gas, and Russia gets paid nothing for it?

	07-02-2004 15:14									#168
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I have a significant problem believing that, mainly because of the problems inherent in transmitting electricity over long distances (problems that made themselves evident in the California power crises).

	07-02-2004 15:15									#169
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It was common practice at the time, and still is I believe, to detain citizens of enemy nations during time of war.

So, if you knew it was a common practice, why the hell you said this?
I seem to recall entire ethnic group or groups uprooted from the Crimea and transported to the East. 'To the East'. Good euphamism for death by labour in camps.

quote: btw, what happened to the Russian born, but ethnically German people of the Don region?

When nazi were close, there was a threat that they will conscript wolksdeutche (sp?) from occupied territories to fight Soviets. So, some of them were deported by order of L. Kaganovich. I think it was deal in brutal way, considering he was a Jew and has his reasons to do not like Germans much.

	07-02-2004 15:17									#170
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'm not going to argue the numbers, at least you are reasonable enough to admit it happened. That is enough.

Where did you get the impression that we were not admitting that?

quote: I would only ask you how you and yours would feel if the tables were turned, if it were your people who suffered 2 million (your number) dead in a government engineered famine. Would you care that the madmen killed some other people too?

It depends on whether it was genocide, specifically aimed at certain ethnicity, or not. What happened to those Ukranians was not genocide.

quote: No **** that would effect current relations. I would be shocked if it did not. It will take time, and examples of good will to overcome the past.

This issue is not on the agenda at all. And this is despite all the tensions and misunderstandings. They don't bring that up. It was not genocide, but rather an evil act in the chain of other evil acts.

You should also take into consideration that Ukraine is a highly inhomogenous country. Western Ukranians are nationalistic and polonized. Eastern Ukranians feel more affinity to the Russian people. For a significant part of the latter, Russian is their mother tongue.

quote: Russia is not going to get a free pass into the hearts and minds of the former subjects thorugh nuclear adventure. Rather, you will have to earn some good will by proving that the past is dead. Rattling your nuclear sabre is unlikely to make the former subjects think Russia is done with abusing them.

Nuclear weapons have nothing to do with Russia's relations with former Soviet republics. Russia needs them for distinctly other purposes.

	07-02-2004 15:20									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Serb So, if you knew it was a common practice, why the hell you said this? I seem to recall entire ethnic group or groups uprooted from the Crimea and transported to the East. 'To the East'. Good euphamism for death by labour in camps. When nazi were close, there was a threat that they will conscript wolksdeutche (sp?) from occupied territories to fight Soviets. So, some of them were deported by order of L. Kaganovich. I think it was deal in brutal way, considering he was a Jew and has his reasons to do not like Germans much.

Because they were born in Russia, Serb. Not Germany. Their ancestory was German, not their passports.

Citizen of is the key term.

You might be surprised how many blond haired, blue-eyed people named Schmidt put on Canadian uniforms to go kill the Bosch.

	07-02-2004 15:21									#172
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither All I"m hearing is a massive ego needing stoking. You are serious that Russia supplies electricity, oil, and gas, and Russia gets paid nothing for it?

Absolutely. We sell it by our internal (MUCH, MUCH, leeser) prices (fe, for electricity it's 15 times lesser). But they don't want to pay even this, saying they don't have money. Only their debt to us is increasing, but we don't recieve REAL money. And they still have balls to insult us. Fools. Someday will turn the switch off.

	07-02-2004 15:23									#173
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Interesting case here (Azerbaijan):
http://www.abacci.com/atlas/economy.asp?countryID=137

quote: Electricity - production: 18.062 billion kWh (1999) Electricity - production by source: fossil fuel: 90.98% hydro: 9.02% nuclear: 0% other: 0% (1998) Electricity - consumption: 15.508 billion kWh (1998) Electricity - exports: 1 billion kWh (1998) Electricity - imports: 1.2 billion kWh (1998)

It's interesting because it is both importing and exporting electricity, and about the same amount; this implies that interanal transmission isn't very efficient, since some areas need to buy electricity when there is a clear abundance.

	07-02-2004 15:26									#174
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I have a significant problem believing that, mainly because of the problems inherent in transmitting electricity over long distances (problems that made themselves evident in the California power crises).

There has never been anything like the California power crisis or the New York blackout in the USSR/Russia.

	07-02-2004 15:30									#175
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Where did you get the impression that we were not admitting that?

From trading posts with other Russians on these boards, and in the absense of anything to the contrary.

quote: It depends on whether it was genocide, specifically aimed at certain ethnicity, or not. What happened to those Ukranians was not genocide. This issue is not on the agenda at all. And this is despite all the tensions and misunderstandings. They don't bring that up. It was not genocide, but rather an evil act in the chain of other evil acts. You should also take into consideration that Ukraine is a highly inhomogenous country. Western Ukranians are nationalistic and polonized. Eastern Ukranians feel more affinity to the Russian people. For a significant part of the latter, Russian is their mother tongue. Nuclear weapons have nothing to do with Russia's relations with former Soviet republics. Russia needs them for distinctly other purposes.

Hmmm. I am very positive that the Ukrainians who live around me (yes there are a lot of them who immigrated) don't speak Russian, and do not feel Russian, at all. Perhaps they are predominantly from one region or another though. I'm pretty sure at least one of them posts on these boards, so I'm sure someone will be along.

My real reason for being up at this hour though, would be to enquire who your nuclear weapons are intended for? They didn't deter the Yanks from paying for the boots to be put to the Red Army in Afghanistan, just as Yankee nukes did not deter Russian support for the NVA and VC. Are you suggesting that the rest of the world should watch out, and not try to forge ties with the Ukraine, the Baltic, and the Islamic republics?

	07-02-2004 15:31									#176
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Because they were born in Russia, Serb. Not Germany. Their ancestory was German, not their passports. Citizen of is the key term. You might be surprised how many blond haired, blue-eyed people named Schmidt put on Canadian uniforms to go kill the Bosch.

What about Japanese-Americans. They were born in USA. They were citizens.
There wasn't a sinle Japanese soldier walking on US heartland, there wasn't even a threat of Japanese invasion, but still they were put in camps. In case of Russia there was a real threat that they will be conscriped to fight Soviets (nazi did it previously on occupied territories), and Soviet had no choice, but to transport them somewhere else. It was war, NYE.

	07-02-2004 15:31									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Serb They do not pay us a single buck for our electricity, oil, gas and while foolish enough to anger and to insult us.

They just feel that the West is 100% behind them in their relations with Russia, no matter what.

	07-02-2004 15:33									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Absolutely. We sell it by our internal (MUCH, MUCH, leeser) prices (fe, for electricity it's 15 times lesser). But they don't want to pay even this, saying they don't have money. Only their debt to us is increasing, but we don't recieve REAL money. And they still have balls to insult us. Fools. Someday will turn the switch off.

Turn the switch off then, by all means. They don't pay, they get candles. I don't know who would have a problem with that outside of some extreme ideologies.

	07-02-2004 15:41									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Serb What about Japanese-Americans. They were born in USA. They were citizens. There wasn't a sinle Japanese soldier walking on US heartland, there wasn't even a threat of Japanese invasion, but still they were put in camps. In case of Russia there was a real threat that they will be conscriped to fight Soviets (nazi did it previously on occupied territories), and Soviet had no choice, but to transport them somewhere else. It was war, NYE.

As I have said, Serb, the Government of Canada has acknowledged what we did was wrong, and Canadians by and large are disgusted by what happened to Canadian citizens who were of the wrong race.

I do not believe the US government has done a public mia culpa, but i am sure that Americans in general who know about such things feel the same as Canadians.

In other words, here we are, flay us. Our countries and their leaders fvcked up. We were completely, and totally wrong. Our nations could not have been more wrong on this issue.

Now, it is your turn.

	07-02-2004 15:43									#180
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quote: Turn the switch off then, by all means. They don't pay, they get candles. I don't know who would have a problem with that outside of some extreme ideologies.

We can't, at least not ready yet. We consider Ukranians and Co as our brothers. But if they will not change their attitude towards Russia, I see no other choice.