09-02-2004 08:25									#31
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Trip, (or anyone)
Can you post a quick map of the area.

It's so hard to follow without a map.
- Didnt we have a world map somewhere.-

	09-02-2004 08:30									#32
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel so agincourt is a sure loss? I can't tell from an old map. how these guys bet grenouille, is beyond me.

If we teleport their army back, then their Knights can get to Agincourt before GWT's Ansar with 0 turns to spare.

	09-02-2004 08:36									#33
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Since the poll to accept Boston is passing, CGN will be fine. Of course, no more blundering by CGN is a requisite.

	09-02-2004 08:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Trip, (or anyone) Can you post a quick map of the area.

	09-02-2004 11:21									#35
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Gawd, are these people military idiots or what?? Pillage a road BEFORE they have to retreat. Talk about making last stands....

E_T

	09-02-2004 11:30									#36
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With them knowing about GWT coming for an age and a 1/2, they should have been making major preparations to that area.

1) they should have planted forrest in all of the grassland tiles, to help slow the advancing hoards.

2) built Culture in those cities, it wouldn't have helped with the GWT fort city, but it would slow them down just a little bit.

3) planted more forrest, all of the way to Agincourt/Waterloo

E_T

	09-02-2004 11:38									#37
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GWT still can't attack Agincourt before 3 turns from this one as long as CGN cuts the road on the forrest tile 6-9 from Agincourt.

16 Ansars move in this way:

Turn 1: 6-6-2
Turn 2: 2-2 or 3-2-2
Turn 3: 1-4(attack Agincourt) or 4-4(attack Agincourt)

With that in mind CGN may want to try their luck with their 18 Knights against GWT's 16 Pikes before some walls appear or they are otherwise mor protected later from now. If CGn wants a shot at taking out GWT's slow movvers and the cover likely to be used for the Ansars then I would do just that now. The survivors can be brought back into Boston and warped home when they gift it to us. I don't see where CGN will have better odds against GWT Pikes in the near future.

	09-02-2004 11:42									#38
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CGN cannot attack the GWT fort city. There is no road from one to the other, meaning it will take 1 full movement to move 7 and then 1 more full movement to attack the city. CGN could attack, but then their core would be helpless against GWT.

Even if CGN could attack and then teleport home, they don't have time to heal and need to be able to beat back the Ansar heading for their core. That would be hard to do with 1/3 of their Knights missing and 9/10 of what's left injured.

All CGN can do is teleport home and send everything east in a mad dash. Their Knights should reach Agincourt just in time.

They never should have pillaged those roads...

	09-02-2004 11:53									#39
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Why did CGN cut the road in their city limits if they planned to hold it for another turn? If they had that road there they could have done some damage against GWT fairly cheaply.

The do have time to heal. I doubt very much GWT will attack with it's 16 Ansars on Agincourt or any other CGN city without their cover units. A 2 defense is simply not enough to chance even with retreating units and CGN having Kights available.

I think GTW flanked them just to sppok them and to check on roads and possibly cut off any supporting troops that may be arriving.

	09-02-2004 11:59									#40
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Bongo is crafty and likes to take chances, don't underestimate him. He just made CGN look like the ameteurs they are. Don't think he won't do it again.

Also, GWT can have GCA spy on CGN cities. They can know what is in Agincourt at any time. Use 1 Ansar to scout ahead, see that there are no roads, continue moving forward the main army. If they see 1 Warrior in Agincourt on the turn they can attack, then I think it's pretty obvious what they would do.

	09-02-2004 12:15									#41
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CGN needs to declare war on GCA to prevent such spying. But, regrdless, the Pikes now in Boston can be in Agincourt in 3 turns since they will likely gift us that city this turn. If GWT attacked then, at Agincourt, with it's Ansars, they would be in a sorry state. Isn't it at the end of those 3 turns that CGN will have GP? CGN may have goofed here, a little, but nothing from which they can't recover. Make sure to mention to micofl to pillage the road on the forrest just outside of Agincourt.

	09-02-2004 13:13									#42
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Maybe we should start to re-think which side we are supporting...

	09-02-2004 21:25									#43
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This is why I was so flabbergasted that they pillaged before retreating. They don't know what they're doing, and unless that changes soon, they're going to get flattened.

-Arrian

	09-02-2004 21:37									#44
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Regretably (as it does appear that CGN aren't the best military strategists) it is probably too late to change sides. Due to their sanctuary of GCA, GWT likely regards them as their major ally and probably plans to deposit them on some/most of CGN's territory if they are defeated. (Yeah, a real nightmare for us all - Lucky will be taunting us like crazy if that happens...)

Plus there hasn't been any real cooperation or friendliness between us and GWT - as has been shown in trying to negotiate safe passage for our galley, their violation of our territory with their galley, the lack of trades, and their generally frosty (nearly hostile) tone with us IMO.

	09-02-2004 22:57									#45
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Hmmmn the problem now is that is many ways Agincourt is actually more precarious than Boston to defend.

GWT will likely be looking to fork(to use a chess term) the CGN defences between Agin and Waterloo by moving their stack of MI or even just the Ansars to the hill 3,3 of Agin. With it taking 4 turns for slow mover to get from one city to the other the long way round and only 2/3 turns for any GWT slow movers to attack either city, CGN would have to split their defences. Divide and rule... GWT only have to take one of those cities then they can ride through the rest of CGN with their 3 movers.

CGN need to get their attackers into play as soon as they can really, thats where their strength lies and where CGN are weakest. Also some fortresses in and around the agin - waterloo area would be cool.
Again CGN really need to get their **** together. They need to thoroughly analyse the situation, look at weak points, strong points, look at what GWT can do, they also need a plan rather than just reacting to what GWT do.

So basically CGN need to stop being rubbish or the game is up for all of us.

Also the prospect of only having CGN on the other continent is looking more and more appealing considering their recent lameness.

	09-02-2004 23:27									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Miccofl has informed me that GWT has outflanked them with 16 Ansar. They are now 1 tile south of the old site of New Castle (abandoned last turn). CGN's entire army is now holed up in Boston, and their roads leading from the city are all pillaged... meaning that GWT's Ansar can now get to Waterloo faster than CGN's Knights (or Pikes).

Ok I've had a look at the map, now can some one tell me what the hell CGN are going to do about the 16 Ansars. Is it me misunderstanding things or can these ansars reach Agincourt before any of the teleported units? If CGN's entire army is in Boston what's stop these Ansars? After teleporting CGN can only get their knights to either Waterloo or to 1 tile from Perris? After that CGN cities start turning blue!!!

I mean I hope I'm wrong here but by my reckoning this war is close to being over.....
Even if they can get their knights near to do some damage the Ansars can dance past them or fork them, perhaps sending some down through Waterloo instead of Perris. Will teleporting all the pikes and MI's back to the capital not simply take all those units out of the game?

	09-02-2004 23:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Also the prospect of only having CGN on the other continent is looking more and more appealing considering their recent lameness.

Indeed, their apparent lameness overall...

Trip, you're on the CGN team in the C3C ISDG, correct?

I don't want you to give too much away about that game (though I could care less, seeing as I haven't joined any of the teams in it as yet), but does CGN have anyone competent you can turn to within their team and ask to take charge of their PTW ISDG military situation? Because of your membership on that OTHER ISDG team, is there any way you can provide military advice to CGN without them getting overly annoyed that Apolyton is trying to run this war for them?

Just trying to think of ideas here...

	09-02-2004 23:41									#48
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I know this is wrong of me to think this, as it will nearly end our game but...


Its just too brilliant.

either CGN's army gets annihilated at Agincourt or Waterloo.



I don't think that's what they had in mind when they named them.


Quite amusing that they named these cities this way so as to humiliate the Grenouilles, and this is how they meet their fate. Poetic justice.

	10-02-2004 00:23									#49
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Ok so the Ansars are 3 turns away from Agincourt and a knight in the CGN capital is also 3 turns away from Agincourt.

The following is the sequence of events
CGN gift us the city,
We accept and the units move back to their capital,
GWT move,
CGN move,
GWT move,
CGN move,
GWT take Agincourt, and Perris unless roads are pillaged and even the city to the west of Perris. If most of CGN's knights are near Perris GWT will see this and move against Waterloo this turn, taking it and beyond in subsequent turns. If CGN's knights aren't near Perris the Ansars will take all the cities over there on subsequent turns..

So basically teleporting the units screws them. Once the Ansars get into the mainland CGN are screwed and they won't be able to stop that if they teleport.
All teleporting does is tell GWT exactly where CGN's units are and where they can be on subsequent turns.

This war is all but over..
Have CGN played their turn yet?

	10-02-2004 01:00									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Indeed, their apparent lameness overall... Trip, you're on the CGN team in the C3C ISDG, correct? I don't want you to give too much away about that game (though I could care less, seeing as I haven't joined any of the teams in it as yet), but does CGN have anyone competent you can turn to within their team and ask to take charge of their PTW ISDG military situation? Because of your membership on that OTHER ISDG team, is there any way you can provide military advice to CGN without them getting overly annoyed that Apolyton is trying to run this war for them? Just trying to think of ideas here...

Currently in the PTW ISDG their MOW went AWOL and military matters are now up for democratic vote. Needless to say, that's not a very efficient system, even if they had brilliant strategists.

I will do my best to try and sway their military matters from now on, using this example as a reason for them to do so.

	10-02-2004 01:04									#51
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Ok so the Ansars are 3 turns away from Agincourt and a knight in the CGN capital is also 3 turns away from Agincourt. The following is the sequence of events CGN gift us the city, We accept and the units move back to their capital, GWT move, CGN move, GWT move, CGN move, GWT take Agincourt, and Perris unless roads are pillaged and even the city to the west of Perris. If most of CGN's knights are near Perris GWT will see this and move against Waterloo this turn, taking it and beyond in subsequent turns. If CGN's knights aren't near Perris the Ansars will take all the cities over there on subsequent turns.. So basically teleporting the units screws them. Once the Ansars get into the mainland CGN are screwed and they won't be able to stop that if they teleport. All teleporting does is tell GWT exactly where CGN's units are and where they can be on subsequent turns. This war is all but over.. Have CGN played their turn yet?

CGN hasn't played yet, no.

Though you're correct. It doesn't appear as though CGN will be able to get to Agincourt in time to save the city if GWT goes full speed for it. However, CGN still has some units in El-Amarna that they can move to that city, as well as 5 Knights which will get to the city before GWT's Ansar can. They may be able to stop them... maybe...

	10-02-2004 01:18									#52
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GWT could capture Agincourt or Waterloo if CGN can't get defenders in there soon enough, but there's no way they could hold it with just Ansars. GWT knows this.

Also, the only way GWT knows it should attack Agincourt or Waterllo without any defenders to protect the Ansars is if GCA spies those cities and tells them so. Even then GWT and GCA will suspect that the units are just outside of those cities. CGN really needs to declare war on GCA to prevent any intel from reaching GWT. This is far from over.

	10-02-2004 01:32									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Trip CGN hasn't played yet, no. Though you're correct. It doesn't appear as though CGN will be able to get to Agincourt in time to save the city if GWT goes full speed for it. However, CGN still has some units in El-Amarna that they can move to that city, as well as 5 Knights which will get to the city before GWT's Ansar can. They may be able to stop them... maybe...

Well perhaps it will be a bit more interesting then

Also would it be better to have the units teleport this turn or next turn? I'm thinking next turn would be better as it would give a good chance that they would get to attack the slow movers and then teleport and would only let the ansars move 1 extra tile, which wouldn't make much difference???

	10-02-2004 01:46									#54
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All of GWT's slowmovers are in their fort city, 2 tiles away from Boston. That means if CGN attacked this turn, they would have units outside of the city this turn at the whim of GWT's slowmovers.

Plus if CGN doesn't teleport now, GWT can get 1 turn further past Agincourt. As it stands now, they can already attack it before CGN's Knights can get there. If they delay teleporting the bulk of their forces, then there's that many more turns that GWT has to run amok.

	10-02-2004 01:51									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Trip All of GWT's slowmovers are in their fort city, 2 tiles away from Boston. That means if CGN attacked this turn, they would have units outside of the city this turn at the whim of GWT's slowmovers. Plus if CGN doesn't teleport now, GWT can get 1 turn further past Agincourt. As it stands now, they can already attack it before CGN's Knights can get there. If they delay teleporting the bulk of their forces, then there's that many more turns that GWT has to run amok.

I was thinking of CGN doing nothing rather than attack the fort city. The ansars would then have to take the 4 turn route to Agincourt going over the jungle tile (else CGN could hit them with knights). Then if GWT moved their slow movers adjacent to Boston, CGN could attack them keeping all units inside Boston and then teleport the same turn.

	10-02-2004 02:01									#56
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quote: Originally posted by OPD I was thinking of CGN doing nothing rather than attack the fort city. The ansars would then have to take the 4 turn route to Agincourt going over the jungle tile (else CGN could hit them with knights). Then if GWT moved their slow movers adjacent to Boston, CGN could attack them keeping all units inside Boston and then teleport the same turn.

That is a good idea. Make GWT move those Ansars on to the jungle and then teleport afterward, whether GWT moves their slowmovers on or not. Even if GWT is able to get into the CGN core they can't do much without their defensive force to protect their Ansars. They may decide to chance it anyway, but those Ansars won't stand up to attacks by knights very well.

I have a question though...what is CGN's complement of defenders in Agincourt? Do they have enough units that they could spare a unit or two to cut the remaining roads (even if they lose the unit later). If GWT can use the remaining roads it will give them the ability to attack Agincourt on the 3rd turn whether or not they go into the jungle first.

	10-02-2004 02:51									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Currently in the PTW ISDG their MOW went AWOL and military matters are now up for democratic vote.

No wonder their military strategy stinks (or, more accurately, is non-existent)!

They need to put someone competent in charge and give them the power to get things done and follow a plan. Failing that, give that power to miccofl... and hopefully Apolyton can influence miccofl to do the right thing...

You know, it might not be harmful for us to suggest joint chats with CGN when they are ready to do their turns... Trip, you could offer your personal assistance, in particular, at the time of CGN turnchats, if they'll allow it...

	10-02-2004 02:55									#58
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quote: Originally posted by OPD I was thinking of CGN doing nothing rather than attack the fort city. The ansars would then have to take the 4 turn route to Agincourt going over the jungle tile (else CGN could hit them with knights). Then if GWT moved their slow movers adjacent to Boston, CGN could attack them keeping all units inside Boston and then teleport the same turn.

What 4-turn route? I see 2 ways that GWT can get to Agincourt in 3 turns, even going through jungle.

CGN cannot get their Knights to a place where they can hit the Ansar first. Due to their cutting of the roads, GWT will always be able to hit the CGN Knight stack first unless they teleport home.

What purpose is there in trying to attack the fort city? CGN has 15 MIs and 13 Knights left in Boston. GWT has at least 20 Pikes. Even if they won every battle, what positive effect would attacking the fort have instead of teleporting home?

	10-02-2004 02:58									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos No wonder their military strategy stinks (or, more accurately, is non-existent)! They need to put someone competent in charge and give them the power to get things done and follow a plan. Failing that, give that power to miccofl... and hopefully Apolyton can influence miccofl to do the right thing... You know, it might not be harmful for us to suggest joint chats with CGN when they are ready to do their turns... Trip, you could offer your personal assistance, in particular, at the time of CGN turnchats, if they'll allow it...

I have personally been vehemently shuffling military advice their way. I have had a few effects (namely, them building more Galleys and Catapults) but others I have not (them pillaging their roads behind them).

I will talk with miccofl about having a new centralized military command (which may be more easily influenced...), using this incident as the best reason why they need one...

	10-02-2004 03:15									#60
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So...

Moving CGN's 18 knights 2,2 will cut off GWT advance.
If GWT attack the knight stack, then there will be losses, but whatever is left from GWT 16 ansar, will be destroyed by CGN's slow movers from the city.

Then the warp can happen next turn.



The only problem, is how many Ansars does GWT have in or just outside their fort city?

I suspect a lot, and GWT could attack the city, and with enough ansars take it and destroy CGN's entire army.
This is especially possible, if CGN just moved their knights south.

The warp should happen this turn

{edit - How many knights does CGN have in Boston ? 13, 18 ?}

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 10-02-2004 at 03:21