09-02-2004 23:19									#1
	PEACE has cheated Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

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Last edited by Maniac on 28-03-2004 at 02:53

	09-02-2004 23:27									#2
	Re: PEACE has cheated Inflate your Upload Space

[/QUOTE]
Those bastards! This is incredible! I know they were desperate, but so much! I support you and propose that one of the moderators automaticaly disbands all defenders as out units near their bases.
DEATH TO PEACE CHEATERS!

Last edited by Maniac on 28-03-2004 at 02:53

	09-02-2004 23:34									#3
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Last edited by Maniac on 28-03-2004 at 02:53

	10-02-2004 00:09									#4
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Unfortunately, I accidently left PEACE and have tried to get Ming to reapprove me, but thus far he has not responded to my PMs

I assure you if PEACE has cheated, I will not show them the same mercy that GooglieGod did.

	10-02-2004 00:14									#5
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I am not going to presume cheating immediately. Something else could have come up, meaning a reload, and they killed our task force all the time. What were the odds to kill the task force? It is easy enough to cheat without reloads, simply have every member play in turn, until you get the result you want, and post that one. If they are doing reload cheats then they're not just cheating, they're idiots.

Either way, if they're cheating, like that, they should be kicked out and their base ceded to us, since we're about to conquor it anyway. If they are not cheating, then we're very unlucky, and it's postponing the inevitable.

Tass needs to investigate the reloads, to find the reason. If they cannot provide evidence (posts, chatlogs, msn convo's, emails, etc) that show why they have reloaded, then they should be punished, by ceding their few remaining bases to us.

	10-02-2004 00:24									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I am not going to presume cheating immediately. Something else could have come up, meaning a reload,

That would be a really big coincidence. And Makahlua and foolish_icarus have used the excuse of "crashing or accidently leaving the wrong way" previous times as well. I don't buy it anymore. After all, why doesn't this happen to any other faction?

quote: What were the odds to kill the task force?

The attack of the laser squad was 2; our defense three. Small odds.

quote: It is easy enough to cheat without reloads, simply have every member play in turn, until you get the result you want, and post that one. If they are doing reload cheats then they're not just cheating, they're idiots.

Makahlua has played about all their previous turns, so it would be rather remarkable if suddenly someone else played it, just the turn when something unlikely happened. And they probably also have a shortage of turnplayers, as they always playing their turn too late shows.

quote: If they cannot provide evidence (posts, chatlogs, msn convo's, emails, etc) that show why they have reloaded, then they should be punished, by ceding their few remaining bases to us.

They can always invent some fictitious reason why they reloaded, just like the previous times. Them cheating cannot be proved certain. One can only assume these current events are very unlikely to happen without deliberate attempts at fraud.

	10-02-2004 00:33									#7
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Maniac: They can invent a reason. However if they have nothing to back it up, it can be called into question. That is why I want evidence, of some sort. If they have an email between them, apologising for the reload, because they forgot to save or something silly, there's little we can do. However I do think you're right, and I think they have cheated.

	10-02-2004 00:41									#8
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I tend to think this is cheating because they gave no warning that their would be reloads on their turn. One reload might be explainable but 2 is very peculular and would require a very good explination when combined with an unlikly battle result.

Our Plasma Garrison also had Displined Morale If I am correct, did their Laser unit also have Displined, I belive they have a Comand Center their and they have returned to Survival SE settings. What morale would that give them?

	10-02-2004 01:19									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue It is easy enough to cheat without reloads, simply have every member play in turn, until you get the result you want, and post that one.

Odds were perhaps so small that they did had to do that very thing a few times for every playing member.

How many active pirates are they? I see Hercules sometimes posting, and then those 2 others (foolish_icarus and makahlua) are ingame. Any others?

quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Our Plasma Garrison also had Displined Morale If I am correct, did their Laser unit also have Displined, I belive they have a Comand Center their and they have returned to Survival SE settings. What morale would that give them?

We can check that in the PUT turn, we have access to Little Accident's base screen. They have command center in the base, so +2 morale for that. I don't know their SE settings out of my head. But if it is Survival, they won't have extra morale above that since that laser unit was just produced.

This also means that Drones and Hive have played their turn with the reload/save message from the pirates, and haven't reported this to the mods/administrators, since nothing came up in the public forum. Aren't they supposed to check for reload/save pop-ups?

	10-02-2004 02:33									#10
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The laser squad should have been hardened. Our plasma garrison was disciplined. 2.25/(3+2.25)*100=42.86% to win one battle over one hitpoint. However 10 battles need to be won (10 HPs destroyed) to be victorious. I don't know how to calculate that, but the chance to destroy the unit would probably be somewhere around one of three. And three is also the number of reloads they had to do. How peculiar!

quote: This also means that Drones and Hive have played their turn with the reload/save message from the pirates, and haven't reported this to the mods/administrators, since nothing came up in the public forum. Aren't they supposed to check for reload/save pop-ups?

I suppose, but I guess they passively consented with the cheating because PEACE is their ally de facto.

	10-02-2004 08:02									#11
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10 hitpoints? How many individual battles is that? From what I have seen of SMAX combat, there are only a few battles for fission reactor units.

And to calculate the odds - it would be the percentage of a win expressed as a fraction of 1 to the power of the number of battles needed. If for example our unit needed to lose 4 times to be killed and they are unharmed, then the chance of this is .4286 ^ 4 = 3.4%

Their chances to win whether damaged or not are a little higher, as there are sets of victories for them where they have lost 1 or 2 individual combat rounds yet still killed us.

	10-02-2004 08:27									#12
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So what happens now?

	10-02-2004 08:47									#13
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This is being investigated. I have posted the following to the PEACE private turn-reporting thread:

quote: Originally posted by Googlie in the PEACE Private Forum Can you send me the first 2155-mid sav that was deleted from this post in this thread? Allegations of cheat reloads have been made regarding this turn and the only comment I can make to the accusing party (the CyCon) is that a midsave was posted then withdrawn, so can you furnish me with the missing save? And it is regarding how a 2-2-1 hardened unit (your laser unit at LA) can defeat a 1-3-1 Disciplined one (the defensive unit in the CyCon attacking force) I must admit to being concerned, as in 25 tries I cannot destroy the CyCon plasma unit with the PEACE laser unit so naturally I am suspicious of any different outcome - and when that particular turn had at least 2 reloads, one wonders ......................

	10-02-2004 11:04									#14
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Who was the turnplayer for this? If it was Herc or Flubber, then they wouldn't have cheated. Don't ask how, because it's better that as few people as possible know how it can be done, but if it was either of them, you wouldn't have seen a reload message had they truly decided to do something like this. Not that I think either of them would do something like this mind you.

If it wasn't them though, unless they've decided to pass the knowledge along (I hardly think Darsnan or Mongoose would, and IIRC, those are the only other two people who know how it's done, with the possible exception of Googlie), then while it seems odd to me that they only needed 2 reloads for something like this, I'd say it's almost certain cheating's gone on here.

Last edited by Archaic on 10-02-2004 at 11:10

	10-02-2004 12:21									#15
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Makahlua played the turn, but after saving a midturn and then getting instructions from Herc and JDM that were incorporated into a later iteration.

JDM has said that against odds of 3:4 the laser unit would be successful against a plasma armor about once in 3 tries.

I have now played the turn fifty times and every time the laser unit is unsuccessful.

The only way I can get a laser victory is through changing the alphax.txt, and then playing the turn. I have asked the PEACE turn playing members to confirm that they are using uncorrupted default texts.

G.

	10-02-2004 12:50									#16
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I am prepared to rule on the issue, Googlie. Read your PMs.

	10-02-2004 13:58									#17
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I'm sure justice will be done and all wrong-doers will be hunt down and smoked out of their caves. Lets call it operation "Infinite justice"

	10-02-2004 15:17									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie JDM has said that against odds of 3:4 the laser unit would be successful against a plasma armor about once in 3 tries. I have now played the turn fifty times and every time the laser unit is unsuccessful.

The odds that SMAC will give will probably be a 1 in 3 chance of victory, but that isn't the chance of winning. SMAC favours the one with better odds far more often than it should, so upsets happen very rarely. If you have done it 50 times and not got a win, then it is less likely than thought though.

I await Tass's verdict.

	10-02-2004 17:03									#19
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Interesting info on the combat resolution... Has anyone knowledge of the exact calculations - has that study been done?

	10-02-2004 18:11									#20
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A question for the gods, or anyone who nows the answer: as long as this issue isn't resolved, does the PUT turn time runs? Or is this postponed till the ruling is done?

	10-02-2004 20:41									#21
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I'd support an indefinite delay while this issue gets investigated and resolved.

I have had exchanges with PEACE and they make the following point:

Their tactic has been to sell facilities to finance rush-builds. I accept that, as I've seen it in all their last three to four turns

Maki played the turn and saved it mid-game for peer review - she had ommited to sell a facility in Little Accident.

Herc had opened the turn a couiple of times to do some rush-build planning re crawlers disband etc, then played the turn, selling the Command Center, and this time he laser unit killed the CyCon plasma unit and the rover took out both the remaining attackers and the probe

He passed that to maki who incorporated it in the offial turn.

I don't know why, but I too get a laser kill of the plasma unit 7 times out of 10 when I sell the Command Center in Little Accident before engaging in combat

I have informed PEACE of this, but also I am withdrawing from any decision re forcing another replay or letting the status quo stand -I'll let Tass decide and will fully support whatever decision he makes (lest I be accused - again - of pro CyCon bias if I rule for a replay or be accused of "leting PEACE get to me" if I ruled on the status quo

So, Tass, put on your Solomon hat and share your wisdom with us

G.

	10-02-2004 21:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I don't know why, but I too get a laser kill of the plasma unit 7 times out of 10 when I sell the Command Center in Little Accident before engaging in combat

This looks like a gamebug, and since I never heard of this one, nor found it in the 'forbidden things to do' thread for this game, on itself it can't be avoided then, nor being called a cheat.

But on the other hand has this happened (according to PEACE) when the PEACE turn (midsave) was REOPENED by another player and sended through to the turnplayer WITH modifications who turned to the good and to be used for the further play. This means that ALL available PEACE members can give it a try and post the turn to the turnplayer for further playing WITH the things who came out as the best for PEACE. This can be the reason for the multiple reloads/saves. In my opinion this IS cheating.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie selling the Command Center, and this time he laser unit killed the CyCon plasma unit and the rover took out both the remaining attackers and the probe

this time sounds also like they all tried to play the turn, but implementing the agreed orders in a different sequence. What are the game rules about this?

	10-02-2004 21:37									#23
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Indeed. And judging from their previous amount of reloads, I guess they've used this tactic of "everyone plays the turn and the best result gets sent to Makahlua" before as well.

	10-02-2004 22:18									#24
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Surely the first turn stands. You cannot replay a turn for different results. If Maki posted the mid-turn, then starting again is against the rules. They can sell the CC later, from her midturn.

That is why a reply is not right. A reply means that can do it again, sell the CC and kill our unit. They played the turn first not selling the CC, therefore they should finish the turn from Maki's mid-turn save, and post that. Even from a mid-turn, you cannot play half the turn, decide you don't like it, and play that half again. If Maki played the turn, posted a review and then Herc goes and replays it, then that is a replay. Herc can obviously look around on his save, then someone else can play it, but if an action is made, you can't decide you don't like it, and replay it.

	11-02-2004 02:57									#25
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PEACE will be forced to play it's first turn.
Also, I am warning them not to use unknown game exploits. Just because it's not on the list doesn't mean we voted to allow it to happen.

If they continue to do this, they will lose a few turns.

	11-02-2004 03:03									#26
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I object!

	11-02-2004 03:21									#27
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OK.

CyCon will surrender all of its bases to PEACE.
Happy?

	11-02-2004 03:22									#28
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No, all im saying is that the current situation is unbearable.

Last edited by laurentius on 11-02-2004 at 03:31

	11-02-2004 03:26									#29
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You mean the current situation remains?

	11-02-2004 03:36									#30
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I think Tass' says they have to replay their turn from a midsave on, without cashing the CC on Little Accident.

I'm I correct?