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finbar is offline finbar
King
Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:34
  Old Post 16-03-2004 04:37 Visit finbar's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia


Yes, well, the Blues were without Carlos and Xavier Rush due to injury which really seemed to take the spark out of them.


Weren't they also missing one of their wingers? Caucau? And, at one stage, Latham chased and caught their other one? Rokococo?

quote:
Despite the scoreline I wouldn't say the Blues were destroyed.


The Reds didn't destroy them as much as the Blues destroyed themselves with terrible handling and the lack of a game plan. They seemed lost without Carlos directing things.

quote:
At this point I think we will be lucky to have one NZ side make it to the playoffs. If I had to guess I'd say Stormers v Waratahs for the final. Who was that who was saying the Super 12 is too predictable?


It's hard to know what will happen. Which, after so many years of fairly predictable patterns, is a damn fine thing. The Bulls and Stormers are playing well at home. The test will be whether they can do it on the road. The test for the Waratahs will be whether they can keep their game together. They have, in the past, started wonderfully, only to fall in a hole. This is shaping as the most interesting S12 season ever.

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar


The gap between the parties had narrowed as the election approached. What has to be remembered is that 90% of the population opposed Spanish involvement in Iraq. There were massive protests. And the government's immediate reponse to the bombings - blaming ETA, denying al-Qaeda (or whomever else), when the complexity of the atrocity was not only obviously way beyond the capacity of ETA, but also completely at odds with ETA's practices - was what tipped the scales, IMHO. The government politicised the atrocity and suffered for it.


Whichever way you slice it, a terrorist act has affected the result of an election. That's bad news for all of us IMO.

finbar is offline finbar
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 06:33 Visit finbar's homepage!
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Yes, it's a dangerous precedent.

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 06:43
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar


Weren't they also missing one of their wingers? Caucau? And, at one stage, Latham chased and caught their other one? Rokococo?


Caucau was on, and it was him that was chased down by Latham. If you saw the replay though you'd see that it wasn't so much Latham's speed that got Caucau so much as the angle they were both running. Still, well done to Latham.


quote:

The Reds didn't destroy them as much as the Blues destroyed themselves with terrible handling and the lack of a game plan. They seemed lost without Carlos directing things.


The new guy started off pretty well, but nerves got him in the end.


quote:

It's hard to know what will happen. Which, after so many years of fairly predictable patterns, is a damn fine thing. The Bulls and Stormers are playing well at home. The test will be whether they can do it on the road. The test for the Waratahs will be whether they can keep their game together. They have, in the past, started wonderfully, only to fall in a hole. This is shaping as the most interesting S12 season ever.


Who knows, maybe the Chiefs will make it to the playoffs this year.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
King
Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 16-03-2004 07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia

Whichever way you slice it, a terrorist act has affected the result of an election. That's bad news for all of us IMO.


I don't agree with you as IMO the Spanish people punished the future former government, and its prime minister in the first place, because of the management of the crisis. Such an amount of sheer stupidity at this level of responsability is unusual... even when politicians are considered.

IMO once again, the elections should have been postponed... it was really stupid to have the people vote three days only after an unprecedented terrorist attack in Europe.

If terrorists have managed to influence an election in Europe they can thank the former Spanish Prime Minister...

finbar is offline finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:34
  Old Post 16-03-2004 07:18 Visit finbar's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
IMO once again, the elections should have been postponed...


Good point.

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin


I don't agree with you as IMO the Spanish people punished the future former government, and its prime minister in the first place, because of the management of the crisis. Such an amount of sheer stupidity at this level of responsability is unusual... even when politicians are considered.


This isn't relevant to the question of whether the elections were influenced by terrorism or not though. If there had been no crisis there would have been none to mismanage.

quote:

IMO once again, the elections should have been postponed... it was really stupid to have the people vote three days only after an unprecedented terrorist attack in Europe.


Here you seem to be agreeing with me about the influence of terrorism on the election.

quote:

If terrorists have managed to influence an election in Europe they can thank the former Spanish Prime Minister...


Either the terrorist attack influenced the election or not - which is it?

Havak is offline Havak
Prince
Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:34
  Old Post 16-03-2004 14:14 Visit Havak's homepage!
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I heard the results of that poll on breakfast radio and I really would like to know more about the sample they took it from. I know three chaps who have served in the British sector around Basra since the war (and Basra is far ‘quieter’ than what the US are facing in Baghdad) and the poll does not match what all of them have opined.

Lets just say I’m a little sceptical – but then I know how to lead questions and fudge resultant statistics so I would be.

Okay a bit of rugger…

quote:
how much experience - are you losing with the first three?


Approximately 280 caps (I would look it up but this is close enough). And there is a huge mistake Clive made right there. He declared no one would be picked for the six nations who would not then be prepared to tour in the summer – Martin, Jason and Neil all have young families and did not want yet another tour at the end of another long season. Therefore instead of having the veterans around to groom the youngsters brought in ahead of the summer what we have actually had is youngsters thrown straight in – a recipe for disaster.

quote:
Relying so much on one man is ultimately so dangerous. Unless, of course, there's another one on the way up.


There are several very young locks around who age for age may be better players than he was. The problem is maintaining that consistency of form. Keep your eye out for a lad called Deacon from Tigers over the next few years – he has the potential to be a Jonno in the long run. The problem with locks is that many mature in their late twenties – Jonno and Eales were unusual in that respect.

Then again three years ago the West country (Bristol) was raving about a young lock called Andrew Sheridan who was poised to de-throne Martin and take his England place – and he is now playing loose head prop for Sale (seriously) and hasn’t come near an England call. Knowing who will convert potential into reality is an art form not a science?

quote:
Actually, I should have spelled it motzer or motser


Great link!

If we really are after Spencer I doubt we could legally afford Gregan under the salary cap – unless we blatantly flout it like Saracens do – but then that isn’t our way.

quote:
So they got it wrong on several counts, the most important of which was that they could've appointed a coach who gives you the irrits!


Quite right – the guy sucks. Still he says he feels humiliated by the WRU so it is not all bad!

quote:
It's people like Trescothic who are the problem - flattering to deceive against ordinary bowling, found out against top bowling because of fundamental technique problems.


Thorpe is the one who gets me – bags full of talent but always falling just short of the mark…

And I think we have noted previously that captaincy has not helped Vaughan and his batting much?

quote:
The next election is due for the end of the year. Intriguing times ahead.


He can always play the immigrant card again as a last resort?

quote:
The government politicised the atrocity and suffered for it.


Several ministers made ill considered public statements certainly – but it still seems certain that the bombings had a massive influence on the ballot box. It might have been wise to postpone a month so brains not hearts were making the choice. After all they will be stuck with the result for a long time.

Having said that I have no problem with the centre left winning – I wish we still had a major party left of centre.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 16-03-2004 15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Lets just say I’m a little sceptical – but then I know how to lead questions and fudge resultant statistics so I would be.


I must admit I am more than sceptical myself, this poll contradicts all that we can hear and see through the newspapers and TV networks since one year. Those results seem very dubious and are IMO far too optimistic.

Wait and see...

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 16-03-2004 15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Having said that I have no problem with the centre left winning – I wish we still had a major party left of centre.


The European good will of the future government is IMO a very good point. Spain was one of the main culprits in the failure of the European Constitution negociations.

finbar is offline finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:34
  Old Post 16-03-2004 16:51 Visit finbar's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
He declared no one would be picked for the six nations who would not then be prepared to tour in the summer – Martin, Jason and Neil all have young families and did not want yet another tour at the end of another long season. Therefore instead of having the veterans around to groom the youngsters brought in ahead of the summer what we have actually had is youngsters thrown straight in – a recipe for disaster.


Fair point, but how do (or did) you see the grooming happening? Who would have played in the 6 Nations? The vets or the youngsters? Assuming you're talking about the vets' replacements.

quote:
There are several very young locks around who age for age may be better players than he was. The problem is maintaining that consistency of form. Keep your eye out for a lad called Deacon from Tigers over the next few years – he has the potential to be a Jonno in the long run.


Yes, but it's the J**** character, too. But, as I said, that's rare.

quote:
Knowing who will convert potential into reality is an art form not a science?


If you happen to get a handle on it, let the Waratahs' brains trust know?

quote:
Thorpe is the one who gets me – bags full of talent but always falling just short of the mark…


Temperament seems to be his big problem. Tons of talent, but emotionally shaky.

quote:
He can always play the immigrant card again as a last resort?


You can bet he'll be looking for something like it. Interestingly, what the new Labor leader's doing is dealing in ideas - new ideas, different approaches. Making the government look old, lazy and tired. Which, after 8 years, is a perception that's hard to avoid.

quote:
Having said that I have no problem with the centre left winning – I wish we still had a major party left of centre.


Me too. Our only one is the minor party Greens.

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Having said that I have no problem with the centre left winning – I wish we still had a major party left of centre.


Centre left?! They're bloody socialists!!

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 19:44
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Tamerlin and Havak -

I can understand your suspicion (considering what your news media tells you), but Zogby are very well respected and certainly don't have any reason to bias the poll either way.

With regard to the servicemen you spoke to, Havak, I would tend to trust the results of a poll with a wide sample of the population for accuracy more than I would the experiences of a few individuals. I have spoken with American servicemen who report positive things, but that doesn't mean their experiences are an accurate overall picture of what is going on.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 16-03-2004 21:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Tamerlin and Havak -

I can understand your suspicion (considering what your news media tells you), but Zogby are very well respected and certainly don't have any reason to bias the poll either way.


I must admit I don't know this Zogby company you are talking about, I suppose that the name SOFRES does not ring a bell either in the USA. I am nonetheless pretty sure that the English and French medias are, if you consider them as a whole, certainly more unbiased than American ones. Some of your newspapers like the New York Times or the Washington post are cetainly on par with ours but I don't think they are those that are the most widespread. All in all your information networks appear really too americanocentric.

Maybe are you right about Zogby's poll but I have learnt to be wary of all the polls... including the French ones.

Havak is offline Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 21:14 Visit Havak's homepage!
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Two problems with my accepting that - firstly our media here is extremely weel balanced which is why the poll results were reported without spin. They were subsequently discussed in various programs but as far as actual news goes it was just the facts presented - ie the poll results.

The other thing is that I know and trust the opinions of the guys I spoke to (to a certain extent). if they say there are problems then believe me there are problems.

For both their reasons I like to know the criteria used for the polls - the where and whens for example.

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 21:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin


I must admit I don't know this Zogby company you are talking about, I suppose that the name SOFRES does not ring a bell either in the USA. I am nonetheless pretty sure that the English and French medias are, if you consider them as a whole, certainly more unbiased than American ones. Some of your newspapers like the New York Times or the Washington post are cetainly on par with ours but I don't think they are those that are the most widespread. All in all your information networks appear really too americanocentric.


Maybe yours are just too eurocentric

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Two problems with my accepting that - firstly our media here is extremely weel balanced which is why the poll results were reported without spin. They were subsequently discussed in various programs but as far as actual news goes it was just the facts presented - ie the poll results.


The poll results may have been reported on fairly, but on the whole your media is far from unbiased. On recent visits to europe I have seen anti-american or anti-bush spin first hand. Then I get back to the US and find that the european reports were much ado about nothing (after further information is revealed).

quote:

The other thing is that I know and trust the opinions of the guys I spoke to (to a certain extent). if they say there are problems then believe me there are problems.


In no way am I discounting their experiences or doubting their honesty. I only point out that these are only the experiences of a few people who cannot possibly provide us with as big a picture as a nationwide poll.

quote:

For both their reasons I like to know the criteria used for the polls - the where and whens for example.


I looked on Zogby's website and unfortunately you have to pay to get detailed information like that.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Apr 2002
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia


Maybe yours are just too eurocentric


At least, they are involving more than one country...

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 22:15
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Are Texas and Maine in the same country?

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 22:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia

On recent visits to europe I have seen anti-american or anti-bush spin first hand.


This anti-american crap is generally coming from well-known newspapers who are not really recognized for the quality of their information. Unfortunately, every country has those stupid information networks and as far as I am concerned their content is not worth the ink they are printed with... whatever the country they are coming from.

Moreover, I sincerely regret the number of trees cut down in order to produce the paper they are printed on.

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 22:24
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I'm not really talking about newspapers. It was the BBC broadcast in Paris that showed me it's bias.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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  Old Post 16-03-2004 23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Are Texas and Maine in the same country?


I suppose Maine would prefer not.

finbar is offline finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
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  Old Post 17-03-2004 03:00 Visit finbar's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin


I suppose Maine would prefer not.


Henny Youngman is alive and well and living in Toulouse!

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
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  Old Post 17-03-2004 06:27
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I had to make some researches over the Internet to learn who Henny "one liner" Youngman was...

finbar is offline finbar
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  Old Post 17-03-2004 08:07 Visit finbar's homepage!
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Probably the first of the stand-up comedians. I think he's credited with creating the classic:

"My wife went on holidays".

"Jamaica?"

"No, she went of her own accord".

And:

"Now, take my wife ... please!".

Havak is offline Havak
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  Old Post 17-03-2004 14:54 Visit Havak's homepage!
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The BBC biased? Ah you have made my day - I can go and watch CBS and CNN news on satellite tonight and have a jolly good laugh at their impartial and accurate news reporting on George Dubya the man - and his US foreign policies.

More details on the poll - it included the Kurdish population (solidly pro alliance) which will distort the picture for the US/UK sectors in the south.

Of all the options polled about alliance forces staying in the country 53% of total responses indicated they wanted alliance forces gone (the time frame of withdrawal varied as the polelrs gave several options). That came from BBC TV Breakfast news without any anti US/alliance comment attached - is it made up?

finbar is offline finbar
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  Old Post 17-03-2004 16:18 Visit finbar's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
The BBC biased? Ah you have made my day - I can go and watch CBS and CNN news on satellite tonight and have a jolly good laugh at their impartial and accurate news reporting on George Dubya the man - and his US foreign policies.


What? You don't get Fox News? I've never seen anything quite so rabidly biased.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
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  Old Post 17-03-2004 16:44
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You are all lucky not to have a TV channel like the infamous French TF1, the news on this channel are so blank and hollow that they can be neither biased neither objective. :disgusting:

Havak is offline Havak
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  Old Post 17-03-2004 16:47 Visit Havak's homepage!
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Actually I think Fox is available on the Astra satellite - but I've never tuned in.

I wonder if I can find TF1 on it?

*Rugby - Grayson picked up a calf injury in training. He is expected to be fit but it does mean we may face the propect of Mike Catt at fly half Saturday!*

Last edited by Havak on 17-03-2004 at 17:01

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
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  Old Post 17-03-2004 17:00
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Don't even think about it, this channel is turning your brain into jelly. The problem is that it is the main French channel.

 
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