18-02-2004 22:04									#1
	Apolyton Revenue Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well after seeing some of the venomous comments and Mark's comments on ad blockers I thought I would throw this out to see if we can get some kind of definitive answer on this situation.

1.) Will ad blocking result in your account being suspended?

2.) Will Apolyton provide instructions on how to allow ads from this site while still blocking ads from other sites? (i.e. browser settings.)

3.) Will the administration offer a fee based ad free membership? And if so, when will it be available?

4.) Could a system be put in place to track members contributions from other revenue sources (i.e. Apolyton store, links from Apolyton to other sites, etc...) that would enable us to maintain ad blocking?

These are just a few questions that come to mind and seem to be the general questions that the myraid of threads and posts seem to be leading to. I'm sure other questions will come to light in this thread, but I would really appreciate it if an admin could address these issues.

Thanks!

	18-02-2004 22:13									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I was just trying to offer a helpful suggestion on how the whores can make themselves richer and take of the evil posters, and they lock my thread. That's the last thing I ever try and do for them.

	18-02-2004 23:18									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: 2.) Will Apolyton provide instructions on how to allow ads from this site while still blocking ads from other sites? (i.e. browser settings.)

-

	18-02-2004 23:26									#4
	Re: Apolyton Revenue Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by PLATO 1.) Will ad blocking result in your account being suspended?

no way am i spending my time chasing people with ad blockers. i'm just saying that it is possible to build a system where ad blocking would automatically lead to some form of inability to use part or whole of the site

quote: 2.) Will Apolyton provide instructions on how to allow ads from this site while still blocking ads from other sites? (i.e. browser settings.)

that is an interesting idea, although i believe it's more or less quite easy for anyone to understand how to do it, if he knows how to install an ad blocker in the first place

quote: 3.) Will the administration offer a fee based ad free membership? And if so, when will it be available?

no comment

quote: 4.) Could a system be put in place to track members contributions from other revenue sources (i.e. Apolyton store, links from Apolyton to other sites, etc...) that would enable us to maintain ad blocking?

possible, but it would of course make more sense if there was an anti-ad-blocking system. without it, the issue would remain on an ethical base...

thanks for the support and the ideas, Dan and i are doing our best in the ammount of time that we currently have to keep the site both free and as enjoyable as it can be.

	19-02-2004 00:19									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

no comment on the fee based membership? oh my...

	19-02-2004 00:24									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: no way am i spending my time chasing people with ad blockers. i'm just saying that it is possible to build a system where ad blocking would automatically lead to some form of inability to use part or whole of the site

Good to know that. I would imagine that the breakeven point on devising such a system would make it a measure of last resort.

quote: that is an interesting idea, although i believe it's more or less quite easy for anyone to understand how to do it, if he knows how to install an ad blocker in the first place

Mine just has a button to turn it on or off. Maybe someone with some technical expertise could give us some instruction here. (The system I use is Norton in case anybody cares )

quote: no comment

Aww! C'mon. Dan had alludded to such a thing several months ago when the idea of donating to Apolyton was being discussed. IIRC, his criteria was that some service needed to be performed in order to get revenue for tax reasons. This seems like a reasonable idea to offer this type membership. The only draw back I can see is that it could hurt your negotiating power with potential advertisers, but this may not be a problem due to the current use of ad blockers.

quote: thanks for the support and the ideas, Dan and i are doing our best in the ammount of time that we currently have to keep the site both free and as enjoyable as it can be.

Thanks to you and Dan for providing the number one site on the internet! Your efforts are appreciated and enjoyed!!

	19-02-2004 00:35									#7
	Re: Re: Apolyton Revenue Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: 3.) Will the administration offer a fee based ad free membership? And if so, when will it be available? no comment

When it is no longer true that you have such limited time for 'Poly would such an option be considered?

	19-02-2004 04:03									#8
	Suffering from ads?

quote: i'm just saying that it is possible to build a system where ad blocking would automatically lead to some form of inability to use part or whole of the site

This already kinda exists. Try using any of the links with ad-blocking....

-Jam

	19-02-2004 04:29									#9
	Remove this text

I don't and wouldn't block ads, but neither am I keen towards a pay-based site.

	19-02-2004 05:02									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If there is a choice (pay for ad-free or accept ads as you do now) then I don't see any problem.

quote: if he knows how to install an ad blocker in the first place

Most browsers have this enabled by default, so even the most technically challenged would be blocking ads regardless of their desire to do so or not.

	19-02-2004 05:09									#11
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns If there is a choice (pay for ad-free or accept ads as you do now) then I don't see any problem.

Amen..........'cept it could be a pig to set up, and Mark doesn't have time now. Hopefully he will soon though!

	19-02-2004 05:50									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

A fee based membership would be problematic if people were getting banned at the current rate and the current policy of "this is a dictatorship" remained.

If Poly does include optional pay membership, I'd make the mild suggestion of massively updating the FAQ on what is allowed and not allowed, since if people are paying they are going to get plenty mad at being banned for something they didn't know about.

Moreover, if someone pays, do they obtain membership rights? Commonly, when one pays to belong to a club or similar organization a person gains a collection of rights concerning what the owners or bosses of the club can do to them.

If Poly wants help at formulating such policies I'll help for free and I'm sure there are other posters who have experience in law, ethics and policy writing who would do the same.

	19-02-2004 05:51									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

BTW spammers, don't spam up this thread as I think there are serious issues to be argued here.

	19-02-2004 06:06									#14
	Got spare money?

One suggestion has been put forth, anonymous donations to the site, which would circumvent many of the ethical concerns.

The problem is how to implement such a system, so that the donations are truly anonymous.

	19-02-2004 06:15									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

You can already make donations to Poly if you wish, with reasonable hope of anonymity - you can send Markos or Dan a cheque. I doubt that they would automatically be biased towards posters who gave them twenty bucks.

Presumably you could use something like PayPal if you really wanted anonymous donations.

However, if money is sought in exchange for certain privileges, then certain legal and ethical obligations accrue to those who charge the fee.

Moreover, there is the problem of creating a two tier system. Many people who post on Apolyton are students, youths or other people with limited means. If it turned out that people who paid were given favourable treatment with respect to bans and other such things, then I think it would create great resentment and do the community no service. So if a paid membership system is instituted, not only do the members gain certain rights (however minimal), but other users ought also to receive at least the right not to be discriminated against because they haven't paid. There is no legal obligation to do that, but it would be wise policy.

	19-02-2004 06:53									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Just because there is a charge, doesn't mean the rules need to be changed or enforced any differently then they are now. Just like any other "private club" the owners can still dictate the rules, and punish those that violate them. In other words, just because you paid doesn't give you the right to be a complete jerk

If you don't like it... you don't have to either sign up or continue to renew.

	19-02-2004 07:21									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

No one said it gave you the right to do anything, Ming.

But if people are going to pay the owners will accrue certain obligations to them that they don't currently have.

	19-02-2004 07:44									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Not really... I will grant you that the FAQ would probably have to be updated But I don't see any "obligations" that will be "accrued" by the owners if people have to pay. It's still the choice of the subscribers on whether they are willing to pay or continue to pay. The same rules could be applied. If people didn't like it, they could stop subscribing. Just like any other private pay site. If you are implying they may want to run their site differently to compete in this more capitalistic format, you are probably right. But lets not call it "accrue certain obligations"... call it what it really is... making the proper business decisions

	19-02-2004 07:54									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: But if people are going to pay the owners will accrue certain obligations to them that they don't currently have.

Indeed... or else you'll see an Exodus to rival Biblical passages .

	19-02-2004 07:59									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

I guess it's just a matter of "terms". Because again, they will have no additional "obligations". But yes, they may make different decisions based on a desire to maximize the number of paying members

	19-02-2004 08:10									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You fools would pay for a forum? When there are so many other perfectly good ones out there? Damn you retards.

	19-02-2004 08:11									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Whoa! I'm talking ONLY about eliminating the ads. Not creating any obligation on the part of the owners other than to eliminate the ad content. A simple disclaimer and non-refundable clause should do the trick. Let's not make this bigger than it is.

Also, concerning straight donations...Dan has said that this would entail setting up as a different kind of legal entity. Something that he has stated that he is unwilling to do. He stated that the criteria for accepting money must be a service or product rendered.

	19-02-2004 08:12									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Venom You fools would pay for a forum? When there are so many other perfectly good ones out there? Damn you retards.

Why are you here?

	19-02-2004 08:15									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: But if people are going to pay the owners will accrue certain obligations to them that they don't currently have. Indeed... or else you'll see an Exodus to rival Biblical passages .

Beyond the service rendered, what obligations are you anticipating? I see no need for the owners to do a thing beyond eliminating ad content under the proposed system.

	19-02-2004 08:16									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Ming Not really... I will grant you that the FAQ would probably have to be updated But I don't see any "obligations" that will be "accrued" by the owners if people have to pay. It's still the choice of the subscribers on whether they are willing to pay or continue to pay. The same rules could be applied. If people didn't like it, they could stop subscribing. Just like any other private pay site. If you are implying they may want to run their site differently to compete in this more capitalistic format, you are probably right. But lets not call it "accrue certain obligations"... call it what it really is... making the proper business decisions

That's the idea. I don't see your problem. You can't take money off people without certain promises in exchange.

	19-02-2004 08:19									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by PLATO Beyond the service rendered, what obligations are you anticipating? I see no need for the owners to do a thing beyond eliminating ad content under the proposed system.

If you're going to suspend someone's account and they have paid for it, you have to take reasonable steps to ensure that they knew the reasons. You can't just cut off someone's account for any reason at all. Imagine if all businesses ran that way.

The FAQ is sadly deficient in this area. That's why I suggested that if Poly becomes a pay site, the FAQ should be updated.

	19-02-2004 08:24									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: You can't take money off people without certain promises in exchange.

Yeah, and the promise is "no ads".

Not that I support such a system anyways. How would your advertisers like it?

	19-02-2004 08:27									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Agathon If you're going to suspend someone's account and they have paid for it, you have to take reasonable steps to ensure that they knew the reasons. You can't just cut off someone's account for any reason at all. Imagine if all businesses ran that way. The FAQ is sadly deficient in this area. That's why I suggested that if Poly becomes a pay site, the FAQ should be updated.

I understand what you are saying, but this could be solved by supplying a certain number of ad free days for a fee. The clock could stop during a suspension (eithier voluntary or involuntary for that matter)

	19-02-2004 08:28									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Yeah, and the promise is "no ads". Not that I support such a system anyways. How would your advertisers like it?

I would imagine about as well as the pop-up blockers.

	19-02-2004 08:36									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

There'll need to be more than no ads to get many takers and banning people who use popup blockers isn't likely to work.

You want to catch a fish, you put something nice on your hook.