15-03-2004 18:43									#481
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well as far as I can see it's a forced win either way, as long as Jamski is reduced to speed 0 for exiting.

I decelerate and turn left.

	15-03-2004 18:54									#482
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Doc, I'm calculating it from the first square they are off the track. That was how I defined "place where they left the track" the first time, and it would be inconsistant if I changed it now. No one complained or even commented on it at that time. And note, that in that instance the person did get placed in a square that they never had been in. We'll see how the randomizer calls it.

	15-03-2004 18:56									#483
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Well I think it's wrong. However you have to be consistent within game so let's see what your coin says.

Let's change that next game though.

	15-03-2004 19:26									#484
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Actually I don't use a coin. I use the SAS random number generator.

And if it's going to change, I would vote that you automatically come in sideways, since it makes more sense then going backwards to reenter the track. In real life they come in sideways or forward of where they left the track.

But that will be left to the next race GM.

	15-03-2004 19:39									#485
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Turn 22 complete, now accepting orders for turn 23.
Good luck gentlemen.

code:

     ********--FINISH
     ********
      *******
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               X*****
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       *****   *
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     ***O      *
     ****      *
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      ****     *
       ***O    *
        *****   *
         *****  *
          ***** *
           *O** *
            O****
           OO****
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       ***O*
      *****
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     **  **
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----********-----Start line   

O=oil slick

Jamski ran off the track (no surprise) and has been reduced to speed 0.
But he did get the favorable placement. Doc thinks it doesn't matter, but we'll see.
Surprised Skanky didn't try an 'S' but i guess he was too worried about crashing.
speed,WC
1. Spaced Cowboy 3,2 *
X. Alva 0,1 Withdrawn
3. Jamski 0,0 *
4. Skanky Burns 4,0 *
5. Jonny 3,1 *
6. Drogue 4,2 *
7. ADG 6,0 *
8. DrSpike 2,0 *

	15-03-2004 19:40									#486
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Fair enough.

I used to teach classes on using SAS in my early postgrad days........overkill for deciding 50/50s in F3!

	15-03-2004 19:41									#487
	Suffering from ads?

I'm still surprised that Doc keeps hitting the breaks. I must be missing something.

You must remember that I work at a market research company where SAS is our primary analytic tool. Using it is easier than flipping a coin. Yes, talk about lazy.

	15-03-2004 19:44									#488
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sent

	15-03-2004 19:45									#489
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Maybe I've got it wrong since you and Skanky both think Jamski wins this way. However I don't see why. His orders are forced now, and in 5 turns I will be right behind him with extra speed and the chance to slip.

If I didn't brake (please stop spelling it 'break') I would be on the outside like Jamski and crashes are possible. Why should I take that risk?

	15-03-2004 20:06									#490
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yeah, I figured one more crash will decide who wins.
break brake, whatever. Didn't notice I did that.

And I don't see his orders as forced, he still has some decisions that could change things.

	15-03-2004 20:31									#491
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well looking at the pic now the random move to the left means its a forced win for Jamski. Nothing I could have done this turn or last would have altered that though, so I was correct to play for the forced win I would have had if he had been put back on the track at the intuitive point.

	15-03-2004 20:32									#492
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Spaced Cowboy Withdraws to speed up the game.

	15-03-2004 20:41									#493
	Tired of ads?

We may as well all do so.

	15-03-2004 21:00									#494
	Suffering from ads?

Doc, if you had not braked over the last two turns, you could have taken him out. And please stop with the intuitive stuff. This is not the first time this has happened in the game. It is not my fault that you weren't paying attention. I've tried real hard to keep this game as fair as possible, and I am slightly insulted that you're insinuating otherwise. But considering the circumstances, I understand.

	15-03-2004 21:33									#495
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I already said that although I disagreed I supported that you had to be consistent throughout the race. You can't be insulted because aside from saying I disagreed on that point (and I still do, but it's beside the point) I haven't insinuated anything. You acted consistently, which is as it should be.

However as to your other point it's incorrect. No matter what my speed or position now I couldn't be further left than I am, since I have turned left every time. All Jamski has to do this turn to avoid a crash (even if I had not braked) is move left, and a crash is impossible.

Hence, I played the way I did since it was a certain win if he was placed on the last square he occupied before he exited. Though I miscalced it earlier when looking at it quickly and said that it didn't matter, if he was placed where he was to the left there was no way I could beat him.

So the 50/50 decides the game. But that's the way it goes, and aside from pointing out I think the rule should operate differently for future games I have made no complaint for anyone to be insulted about.

	15-03-2004 21:51									#496
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I didn't realise there was a 50/50. I just assumed on ending up here when I accellerated into the corner. Guess I got lucky.

Doc has a slim chance of winning still, but it does look good for me.

Orders sent, and we'll see what happens.

-Jam

	15-03-2004 21:56									#497
	Increase Your PM Length

This race (was or will) be decided my many many other factors. The 50/50 here is just the last one of them. I think the race was more decided in the crashes. Without them, you guys may have never taken the shortcut.
And I think you totally misplayed the most recent straightaway run. You had the most advantagous position coming out of the shortcut and you let him take it away. So I don't think you can simplify it down to this last roll.

And of course, after saying all thay, YEAH, you got screwed on the roll. But I do wish both of you had a WC or two left, since it would have made for a real exciting finish.

	15-03-2004 22:10									#498
	Remove this text

Well of course most of that is true. Coming out of the shortcut I would have slipped if I had thought it would be allowed.

But that's not the point. Ever since Jamski braked from 7 to 5 the game has been over conditional on the 50/50. If it went as I initially thought was the rule, I had a forced win. If it went the way it did in the game there was nothing I could do to prevent Jamski winning.

It's unfortunate to decide the game that way (not for Jamski ), but that's life. It is, however, undeniably true that the 50/50 decided the game from the point I specified.

From earlier? I don't know if either of us could have played better, probably both, and until the wildcards were exhausted it's too complex to be called deterministic. After Jamski used his last to brake it's quasi-deterministic - ie decided by one random event, the 50/50.

	15-03-2004 22:15									#499
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I was hoping you'd get the break there to keep it interesting.

	15-03-2004 22:31									#500
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

But it would have been just as disinteresting if I 'won' the roll. Just with a different result.

	15-03-2004 22:42									#501
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Shall we call it 10 poinst for me, 8 for Doc and so on then... and prepare for the next race?

-Jam

	15-03-2004 23:13									#502
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Doc ........is it genius driving towards a glorious win or sheer stupidity? Stay tuned to find out.

The answer is in.

Well done Jamski.

I withdraw. Bring on the next race.

	15-03-2004 23:28									#503
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Well driven Doc, and no greater honour is there than that of a graceful loser.

-Jam

	15-03-2004 23:43									#504
	Increase the size of your Attachments

While I hate to see the race end prior to it's conclusion.......

Who will be the next race GM since I need a break and would prefer to just race this time.

Or do we just want to use Space's NASCAR as the next race?

	15-03-2004 23:45									#505
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Not me. I'm already GMing Mafia and 5-a-side.

I'm happy to play Nascar... if I knew what it was

-Jam

	15-03-2004 23:52									#506
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=110739

In case you weren't joking.

	16-03-2004 01:08									#507
	Got spare money?

Shouldn't you be closing this one?

What????? Someone had to say it.

	16-03-2004 01:25									#508
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I probably will tomorrow to give all the other players a chance to post their congrats, etc.

	16-03-2004 01:26									#509
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Opps, didn't see the 500,

Toast.

please continue in http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=110761