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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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quote:
that many Christians in the past have not followed this decree.
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True, but the fault lies in the people, not in the religion.
Atheists are under no constraints to love Christians, in the manner to which Christians are called to love Atheists.
Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 01-03-2004 at 01:23
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Jon Miller
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Originally posted by Berzerker
Jon -
Yes, there is an episode where some of the disciples are griping about the "special" relationship between Mary and Jesus and someone chastises them. Then there is the problem with Jesus being a priest who doesn't marry...marriage was a requirement for priests to pass along the line. One more point, Jesus attended a wedding at Cana and changed water into wine when it is brought to his attention that the wine is running out. After tasting Jesus' wine a guest comments how the groom usually serves the good stuff first and when everyone is drunk, then produces a second batch of wine that is inferior, but that the order was reversed. Why was Jesus supplying wine in the first place? That's the groom's duty! The only logical conclusion is that Jesus was the groom...
Why would the early gospel authors hide or ignore a possible marriage between Mary and Jesus? Maybe they didn't, maybe their text was edited by Paul and his group. Maybe Paul considered it inappropriate for Jesus to be married, especially if Paul was going to turn Jesus into a divine being. Maybe the authors themselves didn't want Mary to have more attention or relevance... Or maybe Jesus never married, but that leaves us with these problems... |
the first person was Judas and it was about the perfume and feet
Jesus wasn't a preist according to the Jews
Jesus was asked to by His mother, the groom didn't provide enough wine and his mother asked Him to fix the situation
there are no problems but the ones you make up
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
As for atheists "hating" religious folk. C'mon, look at what religious folk have done and are still doing to others in the name of their religion. If atheists had tortured and slaughtered millions of people over the past 30-40 centuries we'd see religious folk hating atheists. Hell, atheists finally gained some power in the 20th century and started slaughtering people too...
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pre early 20th century to be athiest was to be an idiot
athiesm as a reasonable choice is a modern phenomenum
Jon Miller
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
You do realize that not believing in God is atheism, too, Ned? It doesn't have to entail a positive assertion that there is no god, it is simply the absense of belief in God. Welcome to atheism.
And this is categorically wrong. Most atheists, whether of the positive or negative variety, aren't religion-bashers. You're simply practicing your own bigotry by assuming this to be the case based on a small vocal minority. Again, Mr. Double Standard, why don't you judge Christians by the standards set by Falwell and Co.?
 Atheism is built on a lack of belief in God, period. I don't hate religion, nor do any od the atheists I know. They may hate the evils perpetrated in the name of religion by some people, but they hate evils perpetrated by anyone.
Tell, me Ned: What do the major religions in their official dogma say about atheism? Any kind words about it in Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, etc.? Once again, the Nedaverse sees fit to apply blatant double standards to satisfy its master's biased agenda. |
Boris, a person who does not believe in God can be of two varieties:
1) a person who denies the exisitence of God; or
2) a person who agrees that there is no proof of God or not God and therefor who does not deny God's existence.
Definition 2) is better attributed to agnosticism, a doctrine that holds that humans are inherently incapable of "knowing" the right answer.
I am definitely of category 2. So, in one sense of the term, category 2, I am atheist. However, I have no animus whatsoever to religion and do not call people who believe in God fools or idiots or whatever. It is said, even by the religious, that a belief in God requires faith because God is inherently unknowable.
So my beef is with atheists of category one, those atheists who deny the existence of God. Because there is no possibility of knowing whether God exists based upon evidence or upon human understanding, this brand of atheism is based either upon faith or upon animus. Based solely on the statements of most atheists of category one, the answer to whether it is faith or animus is clear.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
So my beef is with atheists of category one, those atheists who deny the existence of God. Because there is no possibility of knowing whether God exists based upon evidence or upon human understanding, this brand of atheism is based either upon faith or upon animus. Based solely on the statements of most atheists of category one, the answer to whether it is faith or animus is clear. |
And the problem is that you are making a false blanket statement about those kinds of atheists. Those who practice positive atheism don't, by and large, go around insulting and belittling religious people, as you seem so keen to do against them. I'm almost ashamed you and I are in the same category of atheists, because you're bigotted statements against the other variety is disgusting. Most of the positives atheists aren't bickering about this stuff, their out living their lives.
You keep dodging inconvenient questions, but let's get this answered: What do all the major religions say in their actual dogma about non-believers, Ned? Since you're oh so concerned about religious bigotry, surely that stuff must make you want to scream!
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I would argue that the ideal for Atheists is to reject all forms of Christianity, and to belittle believers. |
Atheism isn't about rejecting religion (and how noble of you to assume that atheists have to reject Christianity- what, not Islam, and Hinduism too?)- it's about finding
positive things to say about the humanity.
How typically arrogant of you to assume that atheism has to reject anything- it can positively assert that we are personally responsible for our actions, that the notion of someone assuming moral responsibility for crimes we may not yet have committed is absurd, that the idea of 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' would mean it might be rather hard to find Jeffery Dahmer guilty of anything, or indeed to punish him, and so on.
No one has to belittle believers- you do such a good job of it yourselves, with your interminable wrangling about
who has the best god/s and who has the monopoly on truth, and your willingness to proceed anti-clockwise, from assumptions to evidence.
As for Christians being under constraints to 'love' atheists, well, there's a world of difference between ideals and practice, and frankly, on past history, I don't think I'll be taking the word of any religionista, Christian or otherwise, on trust.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And the problem is that you are making a false blanket statement about those kinds of atheists. Those who practice positive atheism don't, by and large, go around insulting and belittling religious people, as you seem so keen to do against them. I'm almost ashamed you and I are in the same category of atheists, because you're bigotted statements against the other variety is disgusting. Most of the positives atheists aren't bickering about this stuff, their out living their lives.
You keep dodging inconvenient questions, but let's get this answered: What do all the major religions say in their actual dogma about non-believers, Ned? Since you're oh so concerned about religious bigotry, surely that stuff must make you want to scream! |
Boris, perhaps I am reacting to the obvious hatred of religion exhibited by many atheists.
As to religions, of course they too can be bigoted in the extreme. The Catholic Church had its moments of extreme barbarism. They even admit to it and have apologized. The current pope has apologized to Islam for the crusades, to the Jews for what happened in Jerusalem after its Christian conquest, to the Jews for persecution during the middle ages, to the Orthodox for Constantinople in 1204.
I grew up as a Catholic and know what the religion teaches: It teaches that Catholicism is the one true religion and that one has to be baptised by a priest in order to gain access to heaven. The Church recognizes the legitimacy of Anglican priests and of Orthodox priests. The dispute with these "sects" is about the primacy of the Pope.
This doctrine does not condemn atheists to be slaughtered or the equivalent if they do not convert. It does not condemn atheists as being idiots, morons or the like for not believing in God because it recognizes that belief is God requires faith.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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Boris:
quote:
I would argue you've now crossed into religious bigotry a la Ned.
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Surprise, surprise. 
quote:
The ideal for an Atheist is to reject all forms of superstition, period. Christianity doesn't get singled out, so we can cut the martyr complex here.
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Yes, but how do Atheists treat those who obey the so-called superstitions? With respect or with scorn? I would say the latter far more than the former.
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And "belittle believers?" Please. So does your rejection of all other creeds but Christianity mean you're belittling them? Are Jews required to belittle all faiths but their own?
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No, because we are taught to love those who differ from ourselves in our beliefs. I do not see any such justification for similar respect from atheists. It seems optional, rather than obligatory.
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Your creed says non-believers are wrong will spend eternity in hell. Mine says believers are just mistaken, but don't suffer any other consequences for it. Gee, which one is more tolerant of a differing opinion here?
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Your own word traps you. Tolerance means that you respect a belief to which you disagree. Christians are not the ones who will be judging, Christ will. All we can do is to offer our alternative, and show you the consequences of your choice.
Secondly, Christians do not consider themselves to be exempt from charges of sin. We still must confront the same attitudes we condemn. I contrast this to the attitude of atheists, who feel so enlightened, as to never have to work from the perspective of the theist. We are never accorded such luxury, in being shown the enormity of our own sins every day.
Finally, Christians, are not called to merely tolerate their enemies, but to love their enemies, to do good to them, rather than ignoring them.
quote:
Nothing about atheism itself promotes any sort of bigotry against religious belief.
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Not the question. Does atheism explictly promote the love of a Christian?
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01-03-2004 00:49
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