01-03-2004 04:15									#361
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James Caviezel said that twice during filming of the flogging scene the Roman soldiers missed (the thick board across his back) and actually hit him with the flails. He said that both times he had his wind knocked out and he could not to cry out in pain. He said that the second time the flails cause a 14 in. gash.

	01-03-2004 04:33									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Ned James Caviezel said that twice during filming of the flogging scene the Roman soldiers missed (the thick board across his back) and actually hit him with the flails. He said that both times he had his wind knocked out and he could not to cry out in pain. He said that the second time the flails cause a 14 in. gash.

Your point? Occupational Health and Safety was lax on the set?

	01-03-2004 04:37									#363
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Molly: 1. What is the philosophical grounds for the atheist to do as he would be done by? 2. Go argue with Boris as to whether Atheists must reject Christianity. He seems to think so. I speak of Christianity, because that is my bias. So boo hoo. If I were a Jew I would talk about attitudes to Judaism. 3. As for he who is without sin, refers precisely to the issue of spiritual judgment, and not legal judgment. They condemn the woman, whild commiting the same sins themselves. 4. Still evades my point. I admit that not all Christians live their life as they ought to. But at least we call for Christians to love their enemies. I do not see any such desire from Atheists beyond the requirements of social necessity and 'tolerance'.

' "....the sin of unbelief is greater than any sin that occurs in the perversion of morals." '

Thomas Aquinas.

Yes, there's a whole lot of love there.

What is the philosophical basis for religionistas to love atheists? Did they make a moral choice, or has the choice been made for them? Why you assume that because you have a belief that your moral philiosophy comes from supernatural being, that it is necessarily better than mine, is part and parcel of the arrogance of religionistas.

What on earth do you think tolerance is about, if not love=respect for fellow human beings?

I respect your right to believe in any number of impossible things, but I still maintain that you labour under a delusion- I would not be true to my own principles if I did not do so.

You make the standard incorrect assumption that because atheism is not 'for religion' then it is necessarily 'against religion'.

Are you for Kali, or Muhammad, or Ahura Mazda? Or are you against them?

Are you for Tarot cards and Wicca or against them?

There is no standard philosophical blueprint for those who do not believe in superstition or religion, or astrology, or anything similar- no codex, no Bible or Qu'ran. There is however a whole stream of philosophical thought predating Christianity and Islam and reaching into modern times, that stresses that the responsibility for our actions lies with us- there is no get out clause for me, I can't say 'god made me do it' or 'it was divinely ordained'.

Not believing in religion on its own does not imply anything about a person's moral code. Most atheists subscribe to a great many of the same moral strictures as religionistas, but from an entirely different base. We can see morality as something created by humanity, according to the way that most humans or societies feel the way the world should operate, rather than seeing it as an arbitrary set of rules handed down by a glowing vapour, or a voice from a cloud.

	01-03-2004 04:41									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The violence in this case is historical, and I think needs to be done in order to fully realize Jesus' ordeal and the consequence of our sin.

This touches on one of the reasons the film is so nasty. Gibson's follows a very conservative strand of catholicism which amongst other things claims Jesus suffered more in his death than any other human has ever suffered or ever will. It was the supreme sacrafice. That is why the movie is so graphic - to support that claim.

I remember this kind of thing being taught from the pulpit. I always found it hard to believe and a misunderstanding of those events.

So in other words the violence is NOT historical. It's hyped up to score a theological point. Interesting how so many non catholics are buying it because it's actually a key ultra catholic proposition.

	01-03-2004 04:49									#365
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, perhaps I am reacting to the obvious hatred of religion exhibited by many atheists.

So you react with bigoted generalizations about people who are also, in some cases, reacting to obvious hatred of atheists exhibited by religionists? Brilliant logic in your realm, really.

quote: This doctrine does not condemn atheists to be slaughtered or the equivalent if they do not convert. It does not condemn atheists as being idiots, morons or the like for not believing in God because it recognizes that belief is God requires faith.

Christian doctrine says all atheists go to hell, Ned. Islam does the same. How is this remotely comparable to things expressed by atheists? And atheists aren't out there slaughtering people who do not convert either, so big deal!

	01-03-2004 05:04									#366
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Surprise, surprise.

No, shouldn't be a surprise. When you claim atheists all belittle believers, you're practicing bigotry, plain and simple. I've never, ever belittled someone for being a believer, and neither has any atheist I've known.

quote: Yes, but how do Atheists treat those who obey the so-called superstitions? With respect or with scorn? I would say the latter far more than the former.

And I'd say you're wrong and making just another bigoted generalization. Athiests spend their lives working and interacting with religious people, and even marry them and share families with them. They don't go around belittling people for their beliefs. The problem seems to be that you think someone disagreeing with your dogma is belittling you. No, they're disagreeing with you. I've seen you belittling atheists here enough to know you're a hypocrite in this regard.

quote: No, because we are taught to love those who differ from ourselves in our beliefs. I do not see any such justification for similar respect from atheists. It seems optional, rather than obligatory.

Yeah, here's the typical "atheism is immoral!" argument. And it's crap. Atheist morality comes from the body social, among other places, and in our society (generally) it is believed you should respect people of different beliefs. And most atheists do just that. You seem to be thinking that atheism is a moral philosophy, which it isn't. Being an atheist doesn't mean one doesn't have any moral philosophy, it just means one doesn't get it from a supernatural deity, one gets it from rational thought and social values.

quote: Your own word traps you. Tolerance means that you respect a belief to which you disagree.

Wrong, Ben. It means you respect the people with whom you disagree. I doubt you respect the belief that abortion is fine in any circumstances, but I hope you tolerate people holding that belief...don't you?

quote: I contrast this to the attitude of atheists, who feel so enlightened, as to never have to work from the perspective of the theist. We are never accorded such luxury, in being shown the enormity of our own sins every day.

Right, atheists never put themselves in other people's shoes or try to see things from their perspectives, no. This is getting old. Is there any insult you won't throw at atheists?

This is again a crock of BS, because atheism isn't a moral philosophy, unlike religions. Atheists don't look to it for morality, they look to other moral philosophies, be they secular humanism, Buddhism, etc. You're missing your mark entirely.

quote: Finally, Christians, are not called to merely tolerate their enemies, but to love their enemies, to do good to them, rather than ignoring them.

And again, you're comparing apples and oranges. Atheism != a moral philosophy, it is merely a statement of belief about a supernatural deity.

quote: Not the question. Does atheism explictly promote the love of a Christian?

See above. Any more jousting with windmills you care to do? We can deal with these silly fallacies all night long.

	01-03-2004 05:07									#367
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Typical. I explain the reason for the graphic violence and noone picks up on it

	01-03-2004 05:11									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I would argue you've now crossed into religious bigotry a la Ned. The ideal for an Atheist is to reject all forms of superstition, period. Christianity doesn't get singled out, so we can cut the martyr complex here. And "belittle believers?" Please. So does your rejection of all other creeds but Christianity mean you're belittling them? Are Jews required to belittle all faiths but their own?

Not that I am perfect, and 100% consistent either, but two wrongs do not make a right (both sides justifying belittling the other because the other does it too).

And your right -- some atheists do not belittle just Christians -- they express their ignorant disrespect for all religious people.

Just as there are some religious people who express ignorant disrespect for atheists.

And the merry-go-round continues to go round, and round . . . . .

	01-03-2004 05:12									#369
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MrFun, and you miss the point again-- Most atheists don't belittle anybody for their beliefs, period. I believe the same to be true of most religious folks, although this thread is starting to make me concerned.

	01-03-2004 05:13									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So you react with bigoted generalizations about people who are also, in some cases, reacting to obvious hatred of atheists exhibited by religionists? Brilliant logic in your realm, really.

I am reacting to the hateful statements of (some) atheists. Athiests of category 2, those who simply do not believe in God but who do not deny that God exist, are inherently respectful of others views. The people who decry Christians or others who do believe in God as idiots, morons or whatever are the problem.

My antogonism to their bigotry is not itself bigotry even though you say it is. Intolerance of others legitimate beliefs is the problem.

quote: Christian doctrine says all atheists go to hell, Ned. Islam does the same. How is this remotely comparable to things expressed by atheists? And atheists aren't out there slaughtering people who do not convert either, so big deal!

I am not sure that a doctrine that says that one must be baptized in order to gain access to heaven is a doctrine that condemns the unbaptized to hell. There is another place between the two reserved for the unbaptized.

	01-03-2004 05:18									#371
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AH:

quote: Jesus suffered more in his death than any other human has ever suffered or ever will. It was the supreme sacrafice. That is why the movie is so graphic - to support that claim.

If that's the case, the suffering need not be physical. In bearing our sins, he would suffer the consequences of them all.

	01-03-2004 05:19									#372
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Typical. I explain the reason for the graphic violence and noone picks up on it

AH, I read your post with interest. I am not sure though that Catholic doctrine says that Christ suffered more than any other human.

He surely suffered horribly, though.

What happened in the movie is an accurate despiction of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

	01-03-2004 05:25									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Ned My antogonism to their bigotry is not itself bigotry even though you say it is. Intolerance of others legitimate beliefs is the problem.

It IS bigotry, Ned, because you're claiming ALL atheists from categoy 1--those who believe God does not exist--are taking these intolerant, bigoted actions. And that is categorically not true.

quote: I am not sure that a doctrine that says that one must be baptized in order to gain access to heaven is a doctrine that condemns the unbaptized to hell. There is another place between the two reserved for the unbaptized.

I'll let BK argue with you on that one, but this is clearly outside mainstream religious thought. And I've been baptized--does this mean I'm granted access to this heaven I don't believe in by default?

	01-03-2004 05:30									#374
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Boris, I may have made overbroad statements heretofore. To the extent that I did, I withdraw them.

However, look at the signature statement of Che below and judge for yourself about Che.

	01-03-2004 05:31									#375
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Boris:

quote: When you claim atheists all belittle believers, you're practicing bigotry, plain and simple. I've never, ever belittled someone for being a believer, and neither has any atheist I've known.

No, some are rather nice. What I am instead claiming that the ideal atheist would belittle Christians.

Lacking evidence to the contrary, I need some kind of affirmation of love for Christians, beyond the tolerance you express.

quote: I've seen you belittling atheists here enough to know you're a hypocrite in this regard.

Yet I do not charge you specifically, and you do not hesitate to call me hypocrite. Go ahead, show me your proof of me belittling Atheists.

quote: Atheist morality comes from the body social, among other places, and in our society (generally) it is believed you should respect people of different beliefs.

So if we lived in an intolerant society, we ought to be intolerant? Cultural relativism is poor sand for a foundation.

quote: You seem to be thinking that atheism is a moral philosophy, which it isn't. Being an atheist doesn't mean one doesn't have any moral philosophy, it just means one doesn't get it from a supernatural deity, one gets it from rational thought and social values.

The last part of your statement contradicts the former. If atheism is a moral philosophy, it will say that one can only resort to reason and social values to define morality. If it is not, there will be no need to make such a statement.

So which is it? Is Atheism a moral philosophy, or is it not? If not, it cannot make the statement I request confirming love towards Christians in particular, and religious folks in general. You confirm my precise statement that it is an optional value, and not obligatory.

It makes little sense to compare Atheism to Christianity, for the same claims to truth cannot be met by Atheism, as can be confirmed by Christianity.

quote: I doubt you respect the belief that abortion is fine in any circumstances, but I hope you tolerate people holding that belief...don't you?

Yes, I do. That does not prevent me from speaking the truth. Many argue that I am not respecting them by showing them the truth of abortion.

	01-03-2004 05:34									#376
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I'll let BK argue with you on that one, but this is clearly outside mainstream religious thought. And I've been baptized--does this mean I'm granted access to this heaven I don't believe in by default?

Boris, you are a good person. I know this from your posts here and from your love of music and life.

You should have not problem with the hereafter.

	01-03-2004 05:36									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Ned However, look at the signature statement of Che below and judge for yourself about Che.

Che is che, and he alone is responsible for his statements and beliefs. No atheist claims to speak for the moral beliefs of other atheist. And I'm not inclined to judge him on a quote in someone else's signature that may be totally taken out of context.

	01-03-2004 05:51									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, some are rather nice. What I am instead claiming that the ideal atheist would belittle Christians.

And you haven't substantiated this claim. What about an "atheist" ideal leads to belittling Christians? Atheism doesn't accept the Christian notion that everyone is inherently sinful, so the notion that without religion we should be behaving badly is not substantiated without using religious dogma. So you're using circular reasoning here.

quote: Lacking evidence to the contrary, I need some kind of affirmation of love for Christians, beyond the tolerance you express.

Love for other human beings is a philosophical value, and atheism is not a moral philosophy, it is only a statement in the lack of belief in a supernatural deity. Period. Most Buddhists are atheists--do you think they share the same moral philosophy as secular humanists?

quote: Yet I do not charge you specifically, and you do not hesitate to call me hypocrite. Go ahead, show me your proof of me belittling Atheists.

Um, "the ideal atheist would belittle Christians."
"I would argue that the ideal for Atheists is to reject all forms of Christianity, and to belittle believers."

Yup, that's belittling Atheists!

quote: So if we lived in an intolerant society, we ought to be intolerant? Cultural relativism is poor sand for a foundation.

Selectively ignoring arguments again, Ben. Note how I said social context was included among other things. This game can really go on forever, can't it? WHy don't you look up some moral philosophies, such as secular humanism and Utilitarianism?

quote: The last part of your statement contradicts the former. If atheism is a moral philosophy, it will say that one can only resort to reason and social values to define morality. If it is not, there will be no need to make such a statement.

Wrong, Ben. Atheism isn't moral philosophy, it only is a statement about belief in a deity. That's it. So by it's very nature as metaphysical belief, it denotes that moral values must come from a non-supernatural source. That's not a moral philosophy in itself, it's simply a statement of fact based upon the natural conclusion of the lack of belief in a deity. There's no moral connotation to it whatsoever.

quote: So which is it? Is Atheism a moral philosophy, or is it not? If not, it cannot make the statement I request confirming love towards Christians in particular, and religious folks in general. You confirm my precise statement that it is an optional value, and not obligatory.

It's NOT, and no one ever argued it was. But again, the "ideal Atheist" will have a moral philosophy not derived from religious dogma, but from other secular sources. Nothing about that requires belittling believers. You seem to once again want someone to prove a negative, which is a tremendous logical fallacy. You have the onus of proving the positive, which is proving to me that atheism requires belittling believers. Got any proof?

quote: It makes little sense to compare Atheism to Christianity, for the same claims to truth cannot be met by Atheism, as can be confirmed by Christianity.

This is precisely the point! Comparing a moral philosophy to something that isn't a moral philosophy is stupid! Atheism is not a moral philosophy, it says nothing about moral values whatsoever. It's simply a lack of belief in a supernatural deity. That's all!

But by asking for a comparable tenet in atheism to a Christian doctrine or any religious doctrine, you're doing exactly what you say makes no sense!

quote: Yes, I do. That does not prevent me from speaking the truth. Many argue that I am not respecting them by showing them the truth of abortion.

So apply your argument here to an atheist. Nothing prevents an atheist from speaking what he feels is the truth, does it? So is an atheist saying he doesn't believe in God somehow belittling you and your beliefs? No, it's just expressing a different opinion.

	01-03-2004 05:51									#379
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quote: "....the sin of unbelief is greater than any sin that occurs in the perversion of morals." ' Thomas Aquinas. Yes, there's a whole lot of love there.

That did not take long for you to dig up a quote eh?

How about :

"We immoralists have...made room in our hearts for every kind of understanding, comprehending and approving. We do not easily negate; we make it a point of honor to be affirmers."

Yet Nietzsche would deny that same freedom to Christians, and objective morality.

So on one hand you have approval of every moral system that one can agree with, and the disapproval of views to which one disagrees. Everything comes down to mere personal opinion, which has been my charge on Atheism from the start.

You may believe that it is right to treat others as you have been treated, but you have no foundation for the claim apart from personal opinion.

quote: What is the philosophical basis for religionistas to love atheists? Did they make a moral choice, or has the choice been made for them?

Christ tells us that there is no good in loving only those who can love us back, but in loving those who do not love us, that we seek a higher standard.

The foundation for this love, comes from the recognition that all men are made in the image of God, and thus have immeasurable value. In refusing to love them, it amounts to a rejection of God.

quote: Why you assume that because you have a belief that your moral philiosophy comes from supernatural being, that it is necessarily better than mine, is part and parcel of the arrogance of religionistas.

I make no such assertion.

quote: What on earth do you think tolerance is about, if not love=respect for fellow human beings?

Tolerance does not equate with love. You can tolerate someone by not speaking to them at all.

quote: I respect your right to believe in any number of impossible things, but I still maintain that you labour under a delusion- I would not be true to my own principles if I did not do so.

Fair enough. I do not believe you to be deluded or outside of your senses, for I once believed as you did. For if I saw then, so must you see now. Rather, I would say that you have not seen all there is.

quote: You make the standard incorrect assumption that because atheism is not 'for religion' then it is necessarily 'against religion'.

I merely make the claim that loving an enemy is a personal opinion of Atheists, and rests upon no solid foundation. One atheist could not call another to task on this point.

quote: Are you for Kali, or Muhammad, or Ahura Mazda? Or are you against them?

Not the issue, you misstate my case.

quote: There is no standard philosophical blueprint for those who do not believe in superstition or religion, or astrology, or anything similar- no codex, no Bible or Qu'ran.

So it is all opinion?

quote: There is however a whole stream of philosophical thought predating Christianity and Islam and reaching into modern times, that stresses that the responsibility for our actions lies with us- there is no get out clause for me, I can't say 'god made me do it' or 'it was divinely ordained'.

But surely you do not claim these authors were Atheists? Much of this sort of reasoning would be made by Theists as well. That is why you have a notion of free will.

quote: rather than seeing it as an arbitrary set of rules handed down by a glowing vapour, or a voice from a cloud.

So instead, you affirm arbitrary personal opinion. Thank you very much.

	01-03-2004 05:53									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, you are a good person. I know this from your posts here and from your love of music and life. You should have not problem with the hereafter.

Well, that's very kind. So I can say this thread hasn't totally made me weep for humanity.

And if it means anything, I don't think you will have any problem in the hereafter either. But that's because I don't believe there will be one.

	01-03-2004 05:53									#381
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I am of two minds about this following story. However, the story does seem to acknowledge that France is experiencing a major problem with anti-Semitism.

February 29, 2004

BY KIM WILLSHER
Advertisement




PARIS -- French cinema chains are refusing to distribute or screen Mel Gibson's controversial film "The Passion of the Christ" because of fears it will spark a new outbreak of anti-Semitism.

France is the only European country where there is still no distribution deal for the film, which depicts the last days of Jesus Christ in graphic detail and is accused by critics of stoking anti-Jewish sentiment.

The film was released in America last week, but French distributors are wary of its impact on audiences and want to gauge its reception elsewhere in Europe, where it is due to open next month.

"We don't want to be on the side of those who support such anti-Semitism," a veteran film industry figure said. "When we distributed 'It's a Beautiful Life' by [Roberto] Benigni, we were worried about the risk of making a comedy about the Holocaust, but that was different. There's enough anti-Semitic stuff circulating here already without us throwing oil on the fire."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Mov...reut/index.html

	01-03-2004 06:08									#382
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quote: What about an "atheist" ideal leads to belittling Christians? Atheism doesn't accept the Christian notion that everyone is inherently sinful, so the notion that without religion we should be behaving badly is not substantiated without using religious dogma.

So what you are saying is that one would not be behaving badly to belittle Christians? If so, then thank you.

quote: So you're using circular reasoning here.

Not at all. I am merely making the assumption that Atheism is a moral philosophy, and needs to be one in order to provide a foundation for loving enemies, beyond that of personal opinion.

quote: Most Buddhists are atheists

You so sure about that? Most Buddhists are not atheists.

quote: --do you think they share the same moral philosophy as secular humanists?

No, but then, that confirms my position Boris. The harder you argue against the moral philosophy of atheism, the harder it is to affirm the concept that one ought to love ones enemies.

quote: "I would argue that the ideal for Atheists is to reject all forms of Christianity, and to belittle believers." Yup, that's belittling Atheists!

You certainly could not condemn an Atheist for believing that.

quote: WHy don't you look up some moral philosophies, such as secular humanism and Utilitarianism?

Because that claim most often pertains to cultural relativism, that is all. I am familiar with the others, but you have not made the proper case for either.

quote: Atheism isn't moral philosophy, it only is a statement about belief in a deity. That's it.

Thank you. So then you admit that atheism in itself, cannot affirm that one ought to love one's enemies.

It is also meaningless to compare atheism to Christianity, for the two make very different truth claims, with Christianity offering a much greater proof for their beliefs.

quote: Nothing about that requires belittling believers. You seem to once again want someone to prove a negative, which is a tremendous logical fallacy.

No, I am asking for an affirmative. Show me why one ought to love your enemy. So far all I have seen are arguments based on personal opinion.

	01-03-2004 06:18									#383
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The Passion's weekend gross exceed that of The Lord of the Rings, the Return on the King and is the second best in history, Wednesday to Sunday.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Mov...reut/index.html

	01-03-2004 06:30									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So what you are saying is that one would not be behaving badly to belittle Christians? If so, then thank you.

Huh? No, that's not what I said, it's opposite what I said. I said that nothing about being an atheist means one must behave badly. So belittling Christians is behaving badly. I'm looking for an affirmative proof from you that atheists are required to belittle people by their belief system.

quote: Not at all. I am merely making the assumption that Atheism is a moral philosophy, and needs to be one in order to provide a foundation for loving enemies, beyond that of personal opinion.

And you're wrong, it's not a moral philosophy, as has been said time and time again. Why don't you list for us the moral tenets of atheism if you think it is such a philosophy?

quote: You so sure about that? Most Buddhists are not atheists.

What in Buddhism makes any reference to a God, Ben? Nothing. Now, Buddhists can be theists, sure--but most I've met have no belief in a deity.

quote: No, but then, that confirms my position Boris. The harder you argue against the moral philosophy of atheism, the harder it is to affirm the concept that one ought to love ones enemies.

You're entirely missing the point, however. Since atheism isn't a moral philosophy, of course it won't say anything about loving one's enemies. But nor does it say anything about hating them, which you're stating it does. It isn't a moral philosophy, period.

Your mistake is that you fail to account for atheists having a moral philosophy outside of atheism. Since atheism isn't a moral philosophy, they MUST have one. Whether it's secular humanism, Utilitarianism, Buddhism, or whatever, THAT is where they will derive their moral tenets.

quote: You certainly could not condemn an Atheist for believing that.

You could, but not on the notion that it's a violation of atheism, but rather because it's being an *******. That's because (familiar trope here) atheism is not a moral philosophy.

quote: Because that claim most often pertains to cultural relativism, that is all. I am familiar with the others, but you have not made the proper case for either.

Again, missing the point. They were mentioned because they are among the moral philosophies atheists follow, since atheism isn't such a philosophy in and of itself.

quote: Thank you. So then you admit that atheism in itself, cannot affirm that one ought to love one's enemies.

Which I never said wasn't the case. But you're failing to grasp the point that atheists have moral philosophies, and nothing about being an atheist in and of itself requires one to belittle others' beliefs.

quote: It is also meaningless to compare atheism to Christianity, for the two make very different truth claims, with Christianity offering a much greater proof for their beliefs.

Yeah, sure. Sorry, but I've seen your "proof" for your beliefs, and they amount to nothing of the kind. You have faith, not proof. Positive atheists may be making a leap of logic, but it's a far smaller leap than required of religious people for their beliefs. That doesn't make them wrong, mind you, but that is what the evidence suggests.

quote: No, I am asking for an affirmative. Show me why one ought to love your enemy. So far all I have seen are arguments based on personal opinion.

No, Ben, you weren't originally asking for an affirmative. You asked for a negative proof that an "ideal athiest" shouldn't belittle the beliefs of others. You offered no evidence of your own to prove they should be doing so, however.

"Love your enemy" can be a non-theistic moral philosophy. Buddhism expresses it. Is it necessary to be an athiest? No, but being atheist only means one doesn't believe in a god, nothing more.

	01-03-2004 07:16									#385
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That did not take long for you to dig up a quote eh? How about : "We immoralists have...made room in our hearts for every kind of understanding, comprehending and approving. We do not easily negate; we make it a point of honor to be affirmers." Yet Nietzsche would deny that same freedom to Christians, and objective morality.

Possibly because I'm familiar with a version of Christianity, and its history. You appear to be unfamiliar with atheism, or what it actually is.

Nietzsche has to speak for himself- he doesn't speak for me, and I neither affirm nor deny what he says. There is no dogma of atheism, no orthodoxy and no set texts.

[/QUOTE]
So on one hand you have approval of every moral system that one can agree with, and the disapproval of views to which one disagrees. Everything comes down to mere personal opinion, which has been my charge on Atheism from the start. [/QUOTE]

Unfortunately you still seem unable to comprehend that atheism in itself is not a philosophy- there were Classical Greek atheists, even early Christian atheists, who were classified as such because they did not believe in the pagan Graeco-Roman pantheons.

I believe in morality in action- there are still plenty of people standing in moral cesspits of their own making shrieking to the skies how moral they are because of their religion.

[/QUOTE]
You may believe that it is right to treat others as you have been treated, but you have no foundation for the claim apart from personal opinion. [/QUOTE]

Yes.

Funny isn't it, how I believe in taking personal responsibility for my beliefs and their consequences? I've actually had to make the effort to work out my principles and ethics for myself.

[/QUOTE]
Christ tells us that there is no good in loving only those who can love us back, but in loving those who do not love us, that we seek a higher standard. [/QUOTE]

I believe in charity for its own sake- so do plenty of other atheists. I don't believe in helping only those who can help me. I don't believe in building a house to god to impress god with how much I love god. I'm aware that by donating to Oxfam, or the various charities I have given money or aid to, that I will derive no immediate or foreseeable benefit from it.

[/QUOTE]
The foundation for this love, comes from the recognition that all men are made in the image of God, and thus have immeasurable value. In refusing to love them, it amounts to a rejection of God. [/QUOTE]

I love humanity- I'm not sure how much more all encompassing you can get than that. I don't not love Muslims, or black people, or Communists, or bad people.


[/QUOTE]
Tolerance does not equate with love. You can tolerate someone by not speaking to them at all. [/QUOTE]

Well, perhaps Christian religionistas like you are more familiar with banning and anathemas and excommunication than I am.


[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. I do not believe you to be deluded or outside of your senses, for I once believed as you did. For if I saw then, so must you see now. Rather, I would say that you have not seen all there is. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, whatever. Your rewrite of the bible is a bit flat. 'Through a glass darkly, sounding brass, la de dah...'

Do try to remember, I do know what religion is.


[/QUOTE]
I merely make the claim that loving an enemy is a personal opinion of Atheists, and rests upon no solid foundation. One atheist could not call another to task on this point. [/QUOTE]

Guess what?

There is no official credo of atheism!

Surprised?

No Nicene Creed, no Council of Trent, zip.

I happen to be a secular humanist- I have no idea what moral principles Boris espouses, nor would I presume to speak for him, without his consent and knowledge of his morals and ethics.

Your solid foundation is yet again, faith in a supernatural being. As solid, as say, faith in Tarot cards, or astrology, or knocking on wood.


[/QUOTE]
But surely you do not claim these authors were Atheists? Much of this sort of reasoning would be made by Theists as well. That is why you have a notion of free will. [/QUOTE]

I think you claim too much solely for theism- I suggest that you investigate the writings of the Hellenic atheists who had no trouble in not believing in the Greek pantheon, and did not need to replace it with a Judaic deity.


[/QUOTE]
So instead, you affirm arbitrary personal opinion. Thank you very much. [/QUOTE]

So why do you believe in your sect of Christianity? Why aren't you a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Nestorian, a monothelete, an antitrinitarian?

I affirm that people should think long and hard about their ethics and morality, and what it means to do good.

	01-03-2004 07:23									#386
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quote: You may believe that it is right to treat others as you have been treated, but you have no foundation for the claim apart from personal opinion.

quote: Yes.

No further questions, Molly. Thank you.

	01-03-2004 07:30									#387
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Boris:

quote: Buddhists can be theists, sure--but most I've met have no belief in a deity.

No doubt influenced by the fact that you live in New York.

Ever hear of the concept of negative soteriology? Everything in Buddhism is structured more on personal fulfillment, rather than getting close to God. So it is little surprise for me to hear that atheists like Buddhism.

quote: You could, but not on the notion that it's a violation of atheism, but rather because it's being an *******.

Thank you. That's precisely what I was looking for.

quote: Whether it's secular humanism, Utilitarianism, Buddhism, or whatever, THAT is where they will derive their moral tenets.

So why be an atheist then? Why not just be a utilitarian?

	01-03-2004 07:37									#388
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No further questions, Molly. Thank you.

'The voice of reason is small, but very persistent.'

Sigmund Freud


I notice you haven't shaken the habit of quoting out of context, or partial quoting.

Is it a habit you had before you espoused your sect's beliefs, or one you acquired with their religious instruction?

The Christian Bible has been used to justify any number of immoral actions- from genocide to slavery and apartheid.

Of course, you'll just whip out your trusty and much used 'no true Scotsman' fallacy and say, 'ah, well they aren't real Christians'- but then with so many Christian sectaries leaping up and down shouting that their way is the only way, how would anyone be able to tell who might be telling the truth?

	01-03-2004 07:38									#389
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quote: So why do you believe in your sect of Christianity? Why aren't you a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Nestorian, a monothelete, an antitrinitarian?

Good question for me to ask myself when I go to Mass tonight.

1. I believe that Christians are supposed to be pacifists, and Mennonites strongly affirm that position.

2. I believe that baptism should only be done for those who have already made some profession of faith, and not done to those who are infants.

3. We have a preacher that has really helped me gain understanding and insight into Christianity.

4. The one who brought me into Christ, this is the church that he brought me into, and I have became a member of the community there.

There are other reasons why I am not Catholic, for example, but none of my reasons here have to do with personal opinion.

	01-03-2004 07:44									#390
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Molly:

quote: I notice you haven't shaken the habit of quoting out of context, or partial quoting.

I see no need to address accusations and unjustified inquiries into my positions. I asked a question, and that was the straight answer you gave before you belaboured upon Boris' points.

quote: Is it a habit you had before you espoused your sect's beliefs, or one you acquired with their religious instruction?

Have you stopped beating your boyfriends?