27-02-2004 11:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: but then isn't the whole good vs evil battle really a blowout? I mean, satan can't win... Maybe he can . "I'd rather rule in Hell than serve in Heaven". Satan, the first libertarian

actually, I remember an old thread of mine where I argued that God is unfair because worshipping him is a prerequisite of heaven, and an unfair god doesn't deserve to be worshipped...

	27-02-2004 11:06									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Sava uhmmm but if you knowingly do something that you know will be evil, aren't you responsible?

No, because God did not do something evil. God created the demons as good. They freely chose to become evil, and the responsibility is theirs.

	27-02-2004 11:06									#33
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Because of love.

	27-02-2004 11:06									#34
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick If God were female the world would be a neater place.

and there'd be Armageddon every month?

	27-02-2004 11:07									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Sure, I argue with my more conservative Catholic brethren all the time.

But that's different: you can go have a drink with them afterwards and drown the disagreement in sweet, sweet alcohol.


*Says the non-drinker *

	27-02-2004 11:07									#36
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quote: actually, I remember an old thread of mine where I argued that God is unfair because worshipping him is a prerequisite of heaven, and an unfair god doesn't deserve to be worshipped...

I'd agree with that. Why would I worship a God who says he loves you, but will only let you in to his special place if you not only love him, but worship him?

	27-02-2004 11:07									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Sava yes because those uniforms are ****ing ugly

Come to think of it, most of the teams I like had ugly uniforms (and some still do!) when I started following them...

New Jersey Devils
Vancouver Canucks
Hartford Whalers
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
New England Patriots

I figure it gives me a right to cheer for them later (ie, now) when their unis improve and they actually start winning games.

jon.

	27-02-2004 11:08									#38
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How could they choose evil if it (evil) hadn't been created already?

	27-02-2004 11:08									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I don't take the old testament literally. It says there is a God, which I certainly don't take literally. If you believe in God based on a book, why not believe in the other things based on the same book?

The Bible is not the sole source of Christian faith. Moreover, while it is extremely valubale as a source of Christian teaching, it is not nessecarily the best historical account of how things transpired.

	27-02-2004 11:09									#40
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I believe in God. I believe that the Bible is inspired, that the Bible should be spiritually interpreted rather than literally, but God, who is a spirit, is also real, alive and among us always.

Satan is the master of this world only by the will of God, which surpasses our understanding. Satan is no rival of God, but is also a spirit and also real, alive and among us always.

	27-02-2004 11:11									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sava actually, I remember an old thread of mine where I argued that God is unfair because worshipping him is a prerequisite of heaven, and an unfair god doesn't deserve to be worshipped...

You have the wrong idea of heaven. It's not a place of a bunch of clubs and fat babies with wings playing on harps, nor is hell a cafe with a bunch of men in red tights poking you with pitchforks.

Heaven is complete and perfect spiritual union with God, and the spiritual state in which we are most happy. Hell is the state of complete and perfect isolation from God, and the spiritual state in which we are most unhappy.

If you don't love God, why would you want to be in heaven and united with that which you do not love.

	27-02-2004 11:12									#42
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So then hell isn't bad either, for those who don't believe in god.

Oops

	27-02-2004 11:13									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson How could they choose evil if it (evil) hadn't been created already?

Evil is not a distinct entity onto itself Rather, it is lacking of goodness. Similar to how cold is not an entity onto itself, but rather a lack of heat.

	27-02-2004 11:14									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar So then hell isn't bad either, for those who don't believe in god. Oops

See the point made earlier. Hell is the spiritual state in which we are apart from God and isolated from the universe, and in which we are most unhappy.

	27-02-2004 11:15									#45
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quote: Heaven is complete and perfect spiritual union with God, and the spiritual state in which we are most happy. Hell is the state of complete and perfect isolation from God, and the spiritual state in which we are most unhappy.

Do you have to choose before you experience each? I mean, wouldn't everyone choose where they would be most happy if they knew that's where they would be most happy?

If we have to choose at a point where we really don't know either way, and then have to deal with the consequences of that choice for all eternity, it seems pretty much like a crapshoot.

	27-02-2004 11:15									#46
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quote: Heaven is complete and perfect spiritual union with God, and the spiritual state in which we are most happy. Hell is the state of complete and perfect isolation from God, and the spiritual state in which we are most unhappy.

In order to be in a union with God, you have to worship him. You have to be his slave. That doesn't really sound like he loves you.

	27-02-2004 11:16									#47
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But an athiest isn't with god.
So are those who do not believe in god in a constant state of misery?

	27-02-2004 11:16									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi You have the wrong idea of heaven. It's not a place of a bunch of clubs and fat babies with wings playing on harps, nor is hell a cafe with a bunch of men in red tights poking you with pitchforks.

nah dude, I never said anything like that... plus, I think if heaven is anything that humans have thought of, I don't wanna go there.

quote: Heaven is complete and perfect spiritual union with God, and the spiritual state in which we are most happy. Hell is the state of complete and perfect isolation from God, and the spiritual state in which we are most unhappy.

how do u know if you've never been there?

quote: If you don't love God, why would you want to be in heaven and united with that which you do not love.

I would love a fair god, not an unfair one...

	27-02-2004 11:18									#49
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick I believe in God. I believe that the Bible is inspired, that the Bible should be spiritually interpreted rather than literally, but God, who is a spirit, is also real, alive and among us always.

If this were so, why do you stand with those who are anti-God? Repeatedly in this forum you have defended those who stand for greed, hatred, intolerence, war, materialism, and murder? Why do you persist in doing so? And why have you chosen to shun those who espouse the philosophies of peace, brotherhood, cooperation, and love?

	27-02-2004 11:19									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Evil is not a distinct entity onto itself Rather, it is lacking of goodness. Similar to how cold is not an entity onto itself, but rather a lack of heat.

So why the difference in choices? If God can only create perfection, not evil, and there was no temptation to chose differently (ie. no active evil such as Satan), they why would anything God created choose to "go cold", and how would they even comprehend such a choice was possible in the first place?

	27-02-2004 11:21									#51
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider If this were so, why do you stand with those who are anti-God? Repeatedly in this forum you have defended those who stand for greed, hatred, intolerence, war, materialism, and murder? Why do you persist in doing so? And why have you chosen to shun those who espouse the philosophies of peace, brotherhood, cooperation, and love?

Does pro-god or anti-god have anything to do with social justice issues?

E.G.
What about a basically good priest who likes to molest young boys?

	27-02-2004 11:23									#52
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quote: If this were so, why do you stand with those who are anti-God? Repeatedly in this forum you have defended those who stand for greed, hatred, intolerence, war, materialism, and murder? Why do you persist in doing so? And why have you chosen to shun those who espouse the philosophies of peace, brotherhood, cooperation, and love?

Wait, wait, wait. I thought YOU were the communist .

	27-02-2004 11:23									#53
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"Do you have to choose before you experience each? I mean, wouldn't everyone choose where they would be most happy if they knew that's where they would be most happy?"

The way we choose is through our actions, and through our love. We would hope that people choose heaven through their actions, and seek penitence for what we do wrong. If however, we are impenitent until the end, once we die we are then outside of the world and the temporal system, and we are locked in the state we are in.

"In order to be in a union with God, you have to worship him. You have to be his slave. That doesn't really sound like he loves you."

We are not God's equal. God created us and we are part of the order he created, and in that order we are below him. The proper action is to submit ourselves to God.

"But an athiest isn't with god.
So are those who do not believe in god in a constant state of misery?"

No, they are still in the world where God still has his presence, and God and his angels can still work with athiests even if they don't know it, and we still hold hope for their salvation. In Hell however, the isolation does become permanent.

	27-02-2004 11:23									#54
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider If this were so, why do you stand with those who are anti-God? Repeatedly in this forum you have defended those who stand for greed, hatred, intolerence, war, materialism, and murder? Why do you persist in doing so? And why have you chosen to shun those who espouse the philosophies of peace, brotherhood, cooperation, and love?

Experimenting with "alternative lifestyles," perhaps? Maybe he's just confused about his spirituality; it's a phase, he'll grow out of it. He wants to have a taste of the darkside before really choosing the Light.

	27-02-2004 11:25									#55
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quote: No, they are still in the world where God still has his presence, and God and his angels can still work with athiests even if they don't know it, and we still hold hope for their salvation. In Hell however, the isolation does become permanent.

Perhaps, however they are further away from God than a devout Christian, correct?
So will the Christian be happier than the atheist?

	27-02-2004 11:26									#56
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quote: We are not God's equal. God created us and we are part of the order he created, and in that order we are below him. The proper action is to submit ourselves to God.

Like I said... "Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven".

	27-02-2004 11:26									#57
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quote: If however, we are impenitent until the end, once we die we are then outside of the world and the temporal system, and we are locked in the state we are in.

This doesn't make any sense. If God created perfect entities who then chose to become 'demons' or whatever outside the world and the temporal system then why can't someone make the opposite choice under the same circumstances? Does free will cease to exist after we die?

	27-02-2004 11:27									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson So why the difference in choices? If God can only create perfection, not evil, and there was no temptation to chose differently (ie. no active evil such as Satan), they why would anything God created choose to "go cold", and how would they even comprehend such a choice was possible in the first place?

Because God created us, and Satan moreso, so with a strong intellect and will that would be capable of comprehending such issues. Being able to comprehend the choice to love God or to not love God, and especially to have the capacity to choose to reject God, is nessecary in order to freely choose to love God. And if we did not have that choice, our love could not be genuine.

	27-02-2004 11:27									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If this were so, why do you stand with those who are anti-God? Repeatedly in this forum you have defended those who stand for greed, hatred, intolerence, war, materialism, and murder? Why do you persist in doing so? And why have you chosen to shun those who espouse the philosophies of peace, brotherhood, cooperation, and love? Wait, wait, wait. I thought YOU were the communist .

he's a christian commie.... that's like a "moderate libertarian"

	27-02-2004 11:28									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Because God created us, and Satan moreso, so with a strong intellect and will that would be capable of comprehending such issues. Being able to comprehend the choice to love God or to not love God, and especially to have the capacity to choose to reject God, is nessecary in order to freely choose to love God. And if we did not have that choice, our love could not be genuine.

but how do you know? maybe god is like that thing in star trek 5 and he is just really powerful but didn't create us...