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Comrade Tassadar
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Free will persists. The Athiest can choose to ignore any external influence and do what they want should they so choose. |
And so they do. So God has no influence.
So my question to athiests stands. Are you miserable?
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Comrade Tassadar
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Is the Bible the word of god?
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Also, Ancyrean, I pose to you this, if Hell is temporary, what if I don't want to ever be with God or a slave to him if I hate him so much? Why should I ever have to go into perfect union with Allah? If in the end we all have to choose Allah anyway, that there really isn't a whole lot of free will.
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Hi Shi 
The issue is not about being with God. We're with God already, in the sense that he's with us and around us already. But if you take by "to be with God" as to mean "I disagree with what relgion says about good and sin and I don't want to accept these", then I mean in all religions there are absolute definitions of good and evil, and there's no negotiation about it. Accordingly, the ability to choose operates in those parameters defined by religion.
Those absolutes are defined in terms of their consequences: for example, lying is a sin because it harms somebody (this is a rough analogy, I know there are white lies, but forgive the imprefection of analogy here), or yourself. So is killing. So is whatever you can come up with as "sin". It involves some harm somewhere down the road. If a person lives on lying or killing or whatever sin, and likes it, then this does not bring exemption from the definition. Nor does anybody's time in hell to get purified from it changes the nature of freedom. A universe in which individuals define subjective sins there's no order. So, one has to accept there are some rules, and not take offense if they are against anybody's liking.
One can of course, choose to reject all. But that's what makes us so special, and no, such people are not cursed, they will reach salvation after they go through the process of maturation. You can shorten it by trying to mature here on earth, or else it'll go on after life.
If I understand your point correctly, you point to the fact that choice that I speak of is not absolute in nature. But ability to choose stops short of definig the parameters of creation. After all, even a non-believer will realise, opon facing it, in judgement day, that there's a God, and that his wisdom is more than ours, and therefore he knew it better It was just that we were tested
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
so? he still knows what we will choose... and he still knew that Satan would be evil... so he created evil |
On a higher plane of thought, "goodness" make sense only in the presence of "evil", if there's something to compare it with. Just like male gender is meaningful if there's a female gender. If everybody was of one sex, then the concept of sex wouldnt ever be realised. So, giving us the ability to choose requires that there be something to choose between. Creating a universe in which a choice might lead to either good or evil is different from creating evil as such. If there was no evil, we all would be automatons of uniform behaviour, just like angels.
It's not that God created evil with a cynical view to pose as king, but rather that the fact that he gave us the freedom to choose necessitated that the choice is not always uniform, that evil "happens".
In fact, even Satan fears God in this respect, for it does not so blatantly commits acts of evil itself, it fears God still. It's us, humans, that can choose to do things that are outrageous, because some among us fear not God. Think of all the atrocities in human history...Satan would refrain from doing them for fear of God...Satan only shows us the other way...That much, God permits...
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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Sorry I missed out on the thread.
Shi's gone to bed, so I guess you have me.
The issue is not about being with God. We're with God already, in the sense that he's with us and around us already. But if you take by "to be with God" as to mean "I disagree with what relgion says about good and sin and I don't want to accept these", then I mean in all religions there are absolute definitions of good and evil, and there's no negotiation about it. Accordingly, the ability to choose operates in those parameters defined by religion.
quote:
Those absolutes are defined in terms of their consequences: for example, lying is a sin because it harms somebody
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Anacyreon:
Let's combine this statement with the first one. Who can be harmed by sin? Other people for sure. But what about God? One has to recognise that the primary person who is harmed by sin, is God.
Also, by the reverse. Other people cannot forgive us our sins, but God can. As the person we are in most debt to for our sins, he ought to be the one who can restore our credit.
quote:
Nor does anybody's time in hell to get purified from it changes the nature of freedom.
[/quote
[quote]
One can of course, choose to reject all. But that's what makes us so special, and no, such people are not cursed, they will reach salvation after they go through the process of maturation. You can shorten it by trying to mature here on earth, or else it'll go on after life.
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No. There are a couple of reasons for this. One could even look at an Andy Capp cartoon where Andy gives money to the vicar, and the vicar blesses him. After Andy leaves, the vicar notes to himself, but you would not like it in heaven.
That's the key. People who go to Hell, are those who would not enjoy heaven. Think about this for a minute. If you have lived your entire life, rejecting God, are you going to change your mind when you see him? Unlikely.
Even if a person repents before God, what good is it to believe in what you see, and what is before you? It is too late. You have had ample opportunity here on Earth to confess your sins, and you have declined your opportunities.
We do not get a second chance, after the Second Coming. Once we die, we are either lost or saved, and there is nothing we can do about that.
It does not decline our free will to say that, because we have had the opportunities to repent before God.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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Anacyreon:
quote:
On a higher plane of thought, "goodness" make sense only in the presence of "evil", if there's something to compare it with.
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No. God is sufficient. He is good, and he is uncreated. If good requires evil in order to be made sense of, then God could not be good, and the nature of God would have to be equally good and evil.
Suppose one were to look at a two deeds, knowing one was good and one was bad. Without some kind of moral guidance, or knowledge of the good, one would be unable to discern the difference between good and evil. You would be just as likely to call what is bad good, and what is good bad.
So not only is good sufficient, but it is a requirement in order to discern evil. In this sense, evil requires good to corrupt, while good can stand alone.
quote:
So, giving us the ability to choose requires that there be something to choose between. Creating a universe in which a choice might lead to either good or evil is different from creating evil as such. If there was no evil, we all would be automatons of uniform behaviour, just like angels.
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In giving us the ability to discern evil, through knowledge of the good, it also gives us the ability to choose evil over the good. Hence, in order to promote the good among beings with free will, one must risk the chance that they choose the evil over the good.
Satan is constrained by God. If you read Job, you see that this is the case. God gives Satan power over certain areas of Job's life in order to test Job. He is never the instrument of evil, any more than he may allow evil to occur.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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Usually don't do this:
Shi, be careful there about the OT. You cannot make such a sweeping condemnation about the books, because the way God works is so different then the way he works now. It is one God, and we ought to interpret the passages literally.
Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 27-02-2004 at 16:26
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:34
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Er, angels are free to move between Earth and Heaven, but they are NOT omniscient, have shown no ability within scripture to transcend time and space entirely (which is IMO a facet of omniscience, not another attribute), and if capable of rebellion they must have some form of free will. Heaven and hell are not magical lands outside time. Transcending time is simply an aspect of God's own existence. He can voluntarily extend that "extratemporality," but it isn't intrinsic to His presence.
I've said this before, but it's a mistake to think of free will as a theological equivalent to the right to free speech. Free Will is simply human consciousness, without which we would not be humans at all.
Sava: Imagine you were a sociopath who, through immense amounts of therapy, had somehow acquired normal human morality. Would it be wrong for you to have a child if you knew it would inherit your original predilections, and didn't want to force the kid to go the way you did?
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Don't take the Old Testament literally. |
Once you start doing that, you start to question the Bible.
Maybe you shouldnt take many passages literally.
Thats how many people end up not taking any of it literally or not (like most in this thread as I can see).
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Bereta_Eder
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But if God is one?
Couldn't angels be perceived as a part and a manifastation of Him? And not as separate entities? Following this logic a part of God rebeled against Himself.
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27-02-2004 11:52
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