02-03-2004 15:30									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai So much ignorance.

	02-03-2004 16:16									#92
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Just take a look at some of the comments

quote: Originally posted by DaShi I don't expect this **** from any nation that claims to be developing. I can understand a bar fight, but the actions of the bar staff and the police were unacceptable.

So all of China is to be blamed for the action of one barkeep and the cops at one police station.


Or how about your friend gets into a fight and gets the sh!t beaten out of him. After the fight, the bartender is trying to make amends.

Your reaction is to say "Oh, they're Chinese so they're going to get their triad buddies to kill my friend."

That's just stupid. If the other guy wants to beat up your friend again, he doesn't need anyone's help. He also doesn't have any reason to start another fight because he already beat up your friend.

Then you complain that the cops didn't do anything. Well what did you expect? If someone was arrested and it went to a court, the judges would be taking testimony from a bunch of people who had been drinking. Plus, with a Chinese court, someone would have been found guilty which means either your friend is deported or the other guy does hard time.

The fight was over. The cops were doing everyone a favour by not doing anything.

So we have a stupid story about a run-of-the-mill bar fight and this becomes an excuse for people to launch into yet another anti-Chinese rant.

	02-03-2004 16:27									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Just take a look at some of the comments So all of China is to be blamed for the action of one barkeep and the cops at one police station.

I never said that. It's that kind of irrational thinking that started the fight to begin with. Are you drunk?

quote: Or how about your friend gets into a fight and gets the sh!t beaten out of him. After the fight, the bartender is trying to make amends.

The bartender didn't try to make amends. If you read the posts in this thread, he was kicking my friend.

quote: Your reaction is to say "Oh, they're Chinese so they're going to get their triad buddies to kill my friend." That's just stupid. If the other guy wants to beat up your friend again, he doesn't need anyone's help. He also doesn't have any reason to start another fight because he already beat up your friend.

I just stated what my friends are worried about. They did threaten to kill my friend. In front of the police.

quote: Then you complain that the cops didn't do anything. Well what did you expect? If someone was arrested and it went to a court, the judges would be taking testimony from a bunch of people who had been drinking. Plus, with a Chinese court, someone would have been found guilty which means either your friend is deported or the other guy does hard time.

Wow! You are delusional.

quote: The fight was over. The cops were doing everyone a favour by not doing anything. So we have a stupid story about a run-of-the-mill bar fight and this becomes an excuse for people to launch into yet another anti-Chinese rant.

You seem to be turning it into an anti-Chinese rant. Also, why are you condoning bar fights? Did I not mention that my friend was threatened with a knife?

I'm sorry, if you take this as an attack on China, but that's your problem.

So please don't call people ignorant. You're only showing your own.

	02-03-2004 20:18									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi I never said that. It's that kind of irrational thinking that started the fight to begin with.

You wrote: "I don't expect this kind of **** from any nation... blah, blah, blah.

So what did you mean by that cause it looks like you're blaming a nation for the action of a few individuals.

quote: Originally posted by DaShi The bartender didn't try to make amends. If you read the posts in this thread, he was kicking my friend. Afraid of losing foreign customers

Yeah, and you also wrote: "The bartender is an *******. Afterwards at the police station he was trying to be all friendly with us. "

In other words, he was trying to patch things up. But you see him as just being mercenary as oppose to maybe a guy who thinks he did the wrong thing.

quote: Originally posted by DaShi I just stated what my friends are worried about. They did threaten to kill my friend. In front of the police.

So the guy sounds like a nutcase. I wouldn't be surprised if he claimed to have friends high up in the Party. Just a guy is pissed off and makes a threat doesn't mean he's a triad member.

quote: Originally posted by DaShi Also, why are you condoning bar fights?

I'm not condoning bar fights. I'm just telling you why the cops reacted the way they did. Decades ago I was in a bar fight in Canada. The cops basically told me that it would be pointless going to court. Testimony from people who have been drinking simply has no credibility in court. Same thing would happen in the States, and I bet the same thing would happen in China.

Anyways, what did you expect. Mainland China is only slowly developing rule of law. There are not enough trained lawyers and not enough trained judges. The cops operate under local customs that differ from region to region. China is like the old wild west of the US.

If you didn't know that before, you better know it now.

	02-03-2004 20:30									#95
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DaShi, how much did you offer the police? You did offer them something, didn't you ... ? Hmmm, this may explain their lackadaisical attitude ...

You want cop, you must have doughnut.

How long you been living in China, dude?

Seriously, I know it's tricky for foreigners to bribe. That's what your employer is for.

	02-03-2004 20:34									#96
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DaShi, Actually, I was overly harsh on you. Your friend got beat up in a bar. The cops didn't help you. You came to Poly to vent. That's understandable so I shouldn't be saying that you're being ignorant.

Also, I hope your friend is okay.

As for some of the other comments from the anti-China crowd...

	03-03-2004 06:18									#97
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Wow, Tingkai somehow managed to shatter my already low expectations for him. Good show.

	03-03-2004 06:55									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Wow, Tingkai somehow managed to shatter my already low expectations for him. Good show.

That's curious, after his last post my respect for him went up a notch.

DaShi, I thought of a solution for you. Next time, why don't you and your friend hang out in a gay bar? Never heard of a fight in one of those! I met a boy from Hangzhou last weekend, he said HZ had about ten gay spots.

	03-03-2004 07:13									#99
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Actually, I thought the best post came from Smiley, that the same thing could easily happen in Texas. I spent over a decade in or on the border of West Virginia, and I simply avoided local bars. For that very reason.

	03-03-2004 08:37									#100
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Anyways, Dashi, how much had you drunk at the time of this?

	03-03-2004 11:53									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai DaShi, Actually, I was overly harsh on you. Your friend got beat up in a bar. The cops didn't help you. You came to Poly to vent. That's understandable so I shouldn't be saying that you're being ignorant. Also, I hope your friend is okay. As for some of the other comments from the anti-China crowd...

Don't worry about it. I've done enough China trolling to have to expect some backlash.

	03-03-2004 16:03									#102
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If you look at how first (and even second) generation immigrants behave and read stuff written by those who spend a lifetime living in a country far from where they were brought up it is easy to conclude that it takes a very long time, certainly more than just one lifetime, to absorb and understand the mores of a people not your own.

So I guess in such a case it would make sense to be slow to judge.

That it will sometimes feel threatening is the common experience - looking at immigrants there is often a wariness about them and a hesitancy to make themselves very noticeable.

Happily I have not myself come across or heard tell of too many cases where the end result is tragic.

All that said, honest service from public officials is so fundamental a thing to be used to that I doubt I could manoevre my way happily through a society which tolerates widespread bribery.

Secret societies would always trouble me a whole lot.

And tolerance of violent behaviour also.

So I guess I'll have to settle for visiting China - if at all - as a tourist.

	07-03-2004 14:07									#103
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!!!Update!!!

We had a meeting with the police that did not go well. The people who attacked my friend sat with the police and were again given cigarettes and water while we were ignored. The police finally took my statement, which was about all we could say to them over their laughter. They also refused to answer any of our questions about the strange behavior on their part, but I guess that's their prerogative. Also, our school's waiban translated for us, but she was less than helpful. While she is a very nice person, she was more concerned with saving the school's face than seeing my friend get justice (more important since the police were now accusing him of assault).

So my friend got a lawyer to help him with his case. One of the reasons he did was that the police claimed my friend was too unfamiliar with Chinese law. Interestingly, the lawyer didn't blame him, because a lot of the what the police said was made up anyway. The lawyer also confirmed the corruption of those police officers and their friendly relationship with my friend's assailant. Nevertheless, what really turned it around was that the girl involved changed her story. She first said that it was my friend who hit her with a bottle, then she said that she didn't know who threw the bottle at her. She did not attend any of the above meetings.

In the end, my friend got what he wanted: an apology and money to cover his medical expenses for his injuries. Plus, he now has a new subject to base his next project on.

	07-03-2004 14:20									#104
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A result I did not expect.

	07-03-2004 14:23									#105
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I'm just glad it is over with.

	07-03-2004 14:28									#106
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Remind me again why your in China?
You sound like you'd be better off in, er, a different nation.

	07-03-2004 20:16									#107
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Remarkable ending! I'm surprised your buddy got such a good result without a payoff!

... or maybe the school came through with a neat stack of 100 notes?

Take care of yourself, DaShi!

	08-03-2004 15:05									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Remind me again why your in China? You sound like you'd be better off in, er, a different nation.

I love China!!!

In fact, I'm trying to become a member of the Chinese Communist Party.

	08-03-2004 15:15									#109
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yay communism! yay china! :let's all og listen to rage against the machine! :dance

	08-03-2004 15:48									#110
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Yeah, but the machine ate them alive.

	08-03-2004 16:43									#111
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Good to hear everything worked out ok.

	08-03-2004 23:39									#112
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I liked Smiley's post, too!

quote: First, the legal systems in those countries is much more about social stability than justice. As what we call corruption is considered normal behavior, and is considered the proper system to reward those who support you in power.

Personally, I think all legal systems are more about social stability than justice. The courts in the USA and Canada are hugely weighted towards those with power and wealth. The police are predisposed to believe those with power and wealth, and/or those who are local.

Derek Whilby was in a New Orleans bar, and basically being extorted for money by the owner. They got the bouncer to put him in a hold of some sort, and called the police, who beat on him and told him they would lock him up if he didn't pay a trumped up $500 fee to the bar owner.

China, Louisiana, it doesn't matter.

	09-03-2004 14:12									#113
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Where do you draw the line? What about the victims?

	09-03-2004 20:43									#114
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Is it possible that this thing happened to you in Hangzhou only because you are Japanese?

	09-03-2004 20:49									#115
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He's not Japanese, he's a Yankee!

	09-03-2004 21:15									#116
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Yeah, they probably would've killed him if he was Japanese...

	10-03-2004 14:10									#117
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Is it possible that this thing happened to you in Hangzhou only because you are Japanese?

Maybe.