01-03-2004 02:43									#1
	Grading Hell: Death to the Teachers!!! Get a bigger avatar today!

Ever wondered why you hated high school? Well the reason is probably that your teachers were incompetent fools. I know this is very likely, because I have spent the day grading the work of folk who hope to one day become child molesters of the mind.

Yes, I am grading for a philosophy course that caters to future teacher trainees; and I've decided that, to save the children, all of them should be rounded up and shot before they can do any real damage. I'm about 35 papers in to a 70 paper load and I'm already crying tears of rage.

In my experience as a university teacher (nearly eight years now) I've come to several conclusions - the computer science students and engineers are good at logic, but lousy at ethics and metaphysics; the humanities and social science students are slightly better at ethics, aesthetics and politics, but not as good in other areas; and the teacher trainees have no brains to speak of.

Why is this? Are the salaries lousy? What explains the fact that teacher trainees consistently produce the worst, ill-argued guff in the university system. I've had a couple of Leisure Studies majors who were much better.

What you get from teacher trainees is usually 5-6 pages of quoted material referenced with the awful Harvard system - e.g. (Tosser: 1999a) - and interspersed with comments like "I feel that this is mean", or "some people think this is wrong". Nothing comes close to a cogent argument and there are often far too many simple spelling and grammatical errors.

Anyway, my verdict is: mindless ****s the lot of them.

Anyone here ever been a TA, grader or lecturer? Whom do you hate with a passion.

	01-03-2004 02:55									#2
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Can I attest to fellow undergrads from other departments?

	01-03-2004 03:00									#3
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Oh yes....

	01-03-2004 03:01									#4
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( Oh and please continue. Hordes of undergrads have begun tracing your location

	01-03-2004 03:06									#5
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Stick it to 'em Aggy!

	01-03-2004 03:10									#6
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When it comes to the debates organized by the teachers, most students are plain idiotic.

	01-03-2004 03:19									#7
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How about this?

We take Organic Chemistry 2 for Chemists together with the guys from Materials engineering. The Professor is extremely naughty, so much so, that he sometimes wonders out loud, why would someone attempt to answer a question, if he doesn't know how. I, too, was called to the board to show the mechanism of a particular reaction, and I, too, made some mistakes. I didn't think that he insulted me by saying I was wrong.

Some people, namely some of the Materials engineering guys wrote an anonymous letter to the professor with a CC to the vice-dean, about how, apparently, the professor verbally abuses the students. I think that he's a kickass lecturer, plus, I didn't think he did anything that terrible, but noooo, they had to whine. So our union leader sends a letter in support of the professor, and the leader of the Materials people calls us suck-ups. He didn't even take the course that simester, he doesn't know what the **** he's talking about, and just because of some whiny *****es got their panties in a bunch, we have to shut up? we like that professor, he explained the material very well.

	01-03-2004 03:24									#8
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The worst ones I've had to deal with are Business Studies graduates.

Not a single one I would trust to do more than make the coffee. If Business is in their hands the economy of the world is stuffed.

	01-03-2004 03:36									#9
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Canadian University professors first!

	01-03-2004 03:39									#10
	Re: Grading Hell: Death to the Teachers!!! Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why is this? Are the salaries lousy?

Maaaaybe.

It's also because teaching, by and large, is exhausting, thankless work that exposes you to a lot of potential violence and problems. You also have to deal with educational bureaucracies that are positively Byzantine and administrators who are REALLY stupid.

My roommate Caroline is a teacher, she can fill you in on the horrors.

	01-03-2004 03:46									#11
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Does anyone else find it amusing that somebody teaching Philosophy is *****ing about people being stupid?

The problem with formal philosophy is insane syntatic overhead. Arguments needn't be structured so damn formally, and they also shouldn't be forced to be on such inane things such as Philosophy.

The only thing truly useful that is "taught" by philosophy is logic. And as Agathon already pointed out, the people who actually need this tend to be actually good at it...it comes naturally to them.

	01-03-2004 03:52									#12
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For Agathon:

We had a seminary on Derrida. We started discussing about Derrida's claim that culture and science is rendered possible by 'scripture' (I hope I've got the right word here, since as you know I study in French).

Then people started saying how that is true, and how oral cultures had an hard time progressing, and bla bla.

I was getting quite , until the teacher had to explain that 'scripture' applies to any form of communication that works with language, and that oral speech also followed its rules.

Idiots. How is it that they are even allowed to study philosophy?

Once, we had this lecture on Plato, and someone raised his hand: "Sir, are you telling us what Plato said, or your personal interpretation of it?"

idiot.

The worst part is with Kant's ethics. People just don't understand him, so they start attacking with arguments he has clearly countered in his book.

	01-03-2004 03:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Does anyone else find it amusing that somebody teaching Philosophy is *****ing about people being stupid? The problem with formal philosophy is insane syntatic overhead. Arguments needn't be structured so damn formally, and they also shouldn't be forced to be on such inane things such as Philosophy. The only thing truly useful that is "taught" by philosophy is logic. And as Agathon already pointed out, the people who actually need this tend to be actually good at it...it comes naturally to them.

Actually, most scientists suck at philosophy, because they won't hear anything about non-empirical facts.

There is some advanced logic in philosophy, and it doesn't come naturally. You have to learn it, just like you would study differential calculus.

	01-03-2004 03:56									#14
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Arguments must be structured sufficiently to eliminate confusion and ambiguity.

Science students seem to have problems with simple ethical concepts because science doesn't deal with value. Students that come from backgrounds like poli sci and English, where values are an important topic of discussion are simply better at doing it because they are used to it.

And Asher is prime evidence of what is wrong with a lot of them. They believe that only what is useful has value. But if it does then the value it has must depend on something which is intrinsically, as opposed to instrumentally, valuable. In fact the really important things are those with intrinsic value since that is what we study the others for the sake of.

Knowledge is in some respects intrinsically valuable, since people are naturally curious. Universities are in part set up to promote activities in the service of this desire. So complaining that people study things with no practical use misses the point. After all I fail to see how philosophy is any less useful than studying the properties of distant stars, which may not ever yield any results other than satisfying our curiosity about the origins of the universe.

	01-03-2004 03:58									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris For Agathon: We had a seminary on Derrida. We started discussing about Derrida's claim that culture and science is rendered possible by 'scripture' (I hope I've got the right word here, since as you know I study in French).

I've never read Derrida and I don't plan to.

quote: Once, we had this lecture on Plato, and someone raised his hand: "Sir, are you telling us what Plato said, or your personal interpretation of it?" idiot.

The worst part is with Kant's ethics. People just don't understand him, so they start attacking with arguments he has clearly countered in his book. [/QUOTE]

as if Plato was around to ask.

	01-03-2004 03:59									#16
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--"and the teacher trainees have no brains to speak of."

I've been saying this kind of thing ever since I had to put up with a public junior high and high school...

You should just be glad you didn't get stuck as a TA in an education course, or else you'd be hammering #2 pencils through your head over the course material as well as the students.

Wraith
"'Educational' refers to the process, not the object. Although, come to think of it, some of my teachers could easily have been replaced by a cheeseburger."
-- Terry Pratchett

	01-03-2004 03:59									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel How about this? We take Organic Chemistry 2 for Chemists together with the guys from Materials engineering. The Professor is extremely naughty, so much so, that he sometimes wonders out loud, why would someone attempt to answer a question, if he doesn't know how. I, too, was called to the board to show the mechanism of a particular reaction, and I, too, made some mistakes. I didn't think that he insulted me by saying I was wrong. Some people, namely some of the Materials engineering guys wrote an anonymous letter to the professor with a CC to the vice-dean, about how, apparently, the professor verbally abuses the students. I think that he's a kickass lecturer, plus, I didn't think he did anything that terrible, but noooo, they had to whine. So our union leader sends a letter in support of the professor, and the leader of the Materials people calls us suck-ups. He didn't even take the course that simester, he doesn't know what the **** he's talking about, and just because of some whiny *****es got their panties in a bunch, we have to shut up? we like that professor, he explained the material very well.

There are good and bad ways to do this. I studiously avoid humiliating the students.

	01-03-2004 04:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I've never read Derrida and I don't plan to.

So sayeth the man who hates Derrida?

What are the structuralists you've read? I find it funny, this hard line between French and English philosophy: the English world can't stand the structuralists, while the French world can't stand the utilitarians.

	01-03-2004 04:02									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Arguments must be structured sufficiently to eliminate confusion and ambiguity. Science students seem to have problems with simple ethical concepts because science doesn't deal with value. Students that come from backgrounds like poli sci and English, where values are an important topic of discussion are simply better at doing it because they are used to it.

Just what do you mean that Science doesn't deal with value? This is a blatant ambiguous argument that confuses me...

quote: And Asher is prime evidence of what is wrong with a lot of them. They believe that only what is useful has value. But if it does then the value it has must depend on something which is intrinsically, as opposed to instrumentally, valuable. In fact the really important things are those with intrinsic value since that is what we study the others for the sake of.

This doesn't even make sense. You should make an unambiguous, clear argument.

quote: Knowledge is in some respects intrinsically valuable, since people are naturally curious. Universities are in part set up to promote activities in the service of this desire. So complaining that people study things with no practical use misses the point. After all I fail to see how philosophy is any less useful than studying the properties of distant stars, which may not ever yield any results other than satisfying our curiosity about the origins of the universe.

Perhaps because understanding distant stars gives us greater understanding of closer stars, which is important because the Earth will not exist forever, and the people will eventually overcrowd this Earth.

Having Knowledge about Kant and Sartre is rather trivial in the grand scheme of things when the Earth gets destroyed.

How's that for perspective?

	01-03-2004 04:02									#20
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You just slag them off on bulletin boards instead

	01-03-2004 04:09									#21
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Asher you had your arse kicked in a thread about this about six months ago. You can refer back to your humiliation there if you want a response.

OB. I never read structuralists. I work in the Analytic tradition and I mainly deal with Greek philosophy.

	01-03-2004 04:19									#22
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A teachers point of view

rantingteacher.co.uk


Oh and good to see you're into proper Greek philosophy Agathon.

Last edited by the_ceebs on 01-03-2004 at 04:57

	01-03-2004 04:21									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Asher you had your arse kicked in a thread about this about six months ago. You can refer back to your humiliation there if you want a response.

IIRC, all you said was a whole bunch of famous scientists invented things back when they were called "philosophers".

	01-03-2004 04:22									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison You just slag them off on bulletin boards instead

	01-03-2004 04:53									#25
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That was a different thread.

Here's a gem I just read.

quote: testing students is wrong because the students who fail the test will see themselves as failures

I'd like this person to see themselves as a failure.

	01-03-2004 04:55									#26
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So you disagree with her, so she gets poor marks.

This is why I disagree with Philosophy as a course worth anything in Uni. Opinions are right or wrong...

	01-03-2004 05:02									#27
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So Asher:

Do you believe that there can be gradations in competence among Philosophers?

	01-03-2004 05:04									#28
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I think Philosophy courses should not be worth marks. Take them for your own interest or your own "betterment" persuits. In my personal experience they've been rather worthless, and I despise a few being requirements for me. But I do understand that it fascinates some people, and is useful for some people, but I still don't think it's a subject that lends itself to grading, since it's supposed to encourage free thought and not mould into right/wrong in the perspective of the prof.

	01-03-2004 05:08									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I think Philosophy courses should not be worth marks. Take them for your own interest or your own "betterment" persuits. In my personal experience they've been rather worthless, and I despise a few being requirements for me. But I do understand that it fascinates some people, and is useful for some people, but I still don't think it's a subject that lends itself to grading, since it's supposed to encourage free thought and not mould into right/wrong in the perspective of the prof.

Marks in philosophy look at the validity of logics, the structure and the depth of the argument, the quality of the writing. All of this is gradable.

	01-03-2004 05:11									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Marks in philosophy look at the validity of logics, the structure and the depth of the argument, the quality of the writing. All of this is gradable.

While nice in theory, I don't think that follows in practice.