01-03-2004 05:11									#31
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"They believe that only what is useful has value. But if it does then the value it has must depend on something which is intrinsically, as opposed to instrumentally, valuable."

I don't follow this line of thought. If someone only belives that something has value if it has a utilitarian purpose, why "must" the value depend on something intrinsic? Their very belief is that there is no instrinsic value, only instrumental value.

	01-03-2004 05:13									#32
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quote: I'd like this person to see themselves as a failure.

you ****ing savage.

	01-03-2004 05:18									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov "They believe that only what is useful has value. But if it does then the value it has must depend on something which is intrinsically, as opposed to instrumentally, valuable." I don't follow this line of thought. If someone only belives that something has value if it has a utilitarian purpose, why "must" the value depend on something intrinsic? Their very belief is that there is no instrinsic value, only instrumental value.

NO!!!! YOU HEATHEN!!!!

They believe that either welfare or preference satisfaction has intrinsic value. That is why they advocate policies that maximize one or the other.

e.g. legal rights are valuable because they they serve the purpose of increasing welfare, and increasing welfare is good because....

...because welfare simply is good. Not good for something else, or useful, just good.

	01-03-2004 05:21									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon NO!!!! YOU HEATHEN!!!! They believe that either welfare or preference satisfaction has intrinsic value. That is why they advocate policies that maximize one or the other. e.g. legal rights are valuable because they they serve the purpose of increasing welfare, and increasing welfare is good because.... ...because welfare simply is good. Not good for something else, or useful, just good.

Not necessarily. They could believe welfare is good because it promotes social harmony, which is good because it allows for peaceful times in which an investment in education and science will be paramount, which in turn gives them jobs and keeps them fed.

Totally utilitarian circle there, no need for intrinsics.

	01-03-2004 05:21									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So you disagree with her, so she gets poor marks.

You cretin.

This person is saying that school tests are bad because people might fail them.

But ask yourself what's the point of a school test unless it is possible for someone to fail it? The whole point of such tests is that they measure ability.

	01-03-2004 05:24									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not necessarily. They could believe welfare is good because it promotes social harmony, which is good because it allows for peaceful times in which an investment in education and science will be paramount, which in turn gives them jobs and keeps them fed. Totally utilitarian circle there, no need for intrinsics.

No real utilitarian believes that. I'm no friend of them, but that is unfair. Funny, but unfair.

Utilitarianism proper rounds out to three things.

1) An account of the good.

2) An acceptance of consequentialism.

3) A principle of aggregation, whereby more of the good is better and less is worse.

Deontological ethics denies 2 and 3 (wrongly in my view).

	01-03-2004 05:24									#37
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Agathon, care to show us one of these papers?
I won't tell anyone

	01-03-2004 05:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Agathon, care to show us one of these papers? I won't tell anyone

Nope - not allowed. Even that quotation was not verbatim.

	01-03-2004 05:27									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No real utilitarian believes that. I'm no friend of them, but that is unfair. Funny, but unfair.

That wasn't my argument, I wasn't talking about Utilitarians with a capital U. If you don't think the above described belief system is real, I can introduce you to several people who have it. Not everyone has a belief system tied to a name-brand philosophy.

	01-03-2004 05:30									#40
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quote: Utilitarianism proper rounds out to three things. 1) An account of the good. 2) An acceptance of consequentialism. 3) A principle of aggregation, whereby more of the good is better and less is worse.

	01-03-2004 05:33									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That wasn't my argument, I wasn't talking about Utilitarians with a capital U. If you don't think the above described belief system is real, I can introduce you to several people who have it.

Are they teachers?

	01-03-2004 05:38									#42
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"testing students is wrong because the students who fail the test will see themselves as failures"

Terribly, terribly written sentence.

You should come teach down at Grinnell, Ag! We write well.

Also, please never demand that your papers be written in 10 point font. God, I hate it so.

	01-03-2004 05:40									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You cretin. This person is saying that school tests are bad because people might fail them. But ask yourself what's the point of a school test unless it is possible for someone to fail it? The whole point of such tests is that they measure ability.

Maybe that was her point? There is actually an active movement in some areas of education to remove testing...

But of course, as a philosopher you should be able to see such things rather than to dismiss it superficially as you just did.

	01-03-2004 05:41									#44
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10-12 is my limit. 8 is too small. Anything bigger just looks odd.

And people who write in colours or in one of the elaborate decorative fonts (usually women) deserve to die!!!

	01-03-2004 05:44									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Maybe that was her point? There is actually an active movement in some areas of education to remove testing... But of course, as a philosopher you should be able to see such things rather than to dismiss it superficially as you just did.

That's what the paper was about. But that sentence was the author's only argument for it.

I suppose in your neck of the woods, "we shouldn't have tests because people who fail will feel as if they failed" stands as a plausible supporting argument for a whole paper.

	01-03-2004 05:44									#46
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Yes, Agathon. what makes her arguement wrong?

	01-03-2004 05:45									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon 10-12 is my limit. 8 is too small. Anything bigger just looks odd.

I'm sure the gay contingent of Apolyton couldn't agree with you more

	01-03-2004 05:53									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Asher While nice in theory, I don't think that follows in practice.

The vast majority of essays and exams do not ask you to critique, but rather to show your understanding of a philosopher or philosophy.

	01-03-2004 05:54									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I'm sure the gay contingent of Apolyton couldn't agree with you more

	01-03-2004 05:56									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Yes, Agathon. what makes her arguement wrong?

It's facile. People who fail a test will necessarily feel like failures (it's a bad choice of words too, because it is ambiguous). But giving that as your central supporting reason without addressing the function that tests are supposed to have is just silly. A test proponent will happily admit that those who fail the tests might feel like failures, and still maintain that tests are worthwhile.

Logically speaking, it is not sufficient to establish the conclusion without additional argument, and on its own it is really weak since the opponent can admit it at no cost.

	01-03-2004 05:59									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I'm sure the gay contingent of Apolyton couldn't agree with you more

I always figured Aggie was a size queen.

	01-03-2004 06:00									#52
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A "Size Queen"?

* Ag's vocabulary increases +1

Yuk.

	01-03-2004 06:23									#53
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Let me get this straight... Agathon was grading papers from a class he taught, and he's pissed at how stupid the answers are... well, isn't it his fault. Shouldn't he be doing a better job of teaching them... If the whole class sucks, it's usually the teachers fault

	01-03-2004 06:24									#54
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I'm not the teacher, this is supplementary to my teaching allotment. I am merely a grading peon for this class.

	01-03-2004 06:30									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Does anyone else find it amusing that somebody teaching Philosophy is *****ing about people being stupid? The problem with formal philosophy is insane syntatic overhead. Arguments needn't be structured so damn formally, and they also shouldn't be forced to be on such inane things such as Philosophy. The only thing truly useful that is "taught" by philosophy is logic. And as Agathon already pointed out, the people who actually need this tend to be actually good at it...it comes naturally to them.

Asher for the win!

You cant teach logic, common sense, philosophy or argumentory skills... all of these things come to people through experience or they just know how-the BEST you can do is apishly teach someone to immitate them.... poorly.

	01-03-2004 06:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Actually, most scientists suck at philosophy, because they won't hear anything about non-empirical facts. There is some advanced logic in philosophy, and it doesn't come naturally. You have to learn it, just like you would study differential calculus.

I'm a CS major and the most argumentative person I know, especially over philosophical issues. The "technical people suck at non technical" stereotypes isnt true at all.

	01-03-2004 06:32									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I'm not the teacher, this is supplementary to my teaching allotment. I am merely a grading peon for this class.

But still... being one of the teachers in the department, it's your job to teach these kids... they obviously aren't learning squat

	01-03-2004 06:33									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Asher for the win! You cant teach logic, common sense, philosophy or argumentory skills... all of these things come to people through experience or they just know how-the BEST you can do is apishly teach someone to immitate them.... poorly.

"You can;t teach philosophy"? Since when 'can't you"? As for teaching logic, last time I heard, most babies aren't born knowing logic.

So Vesayen, I guess you were born knowing the work of Kant, correct?

	01-03-2004 06:35									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen I'm a CS major and the most argumentative person I know, especially over philosophical issues. The "technical people suck at non technical" stereotypes isnt true at all.

And if you were better versed at logic, you would see how one case is NOT enough of a sample to disprove a generalization.

Also, "being arguementative" is not the same as understanding ethical issues. Anyone can be arguementative. That is a character issue.

	01-03-2004 06:35									#60
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He meant the actual applied use of philosophy: the ability to think and argue rationally.

If Philosophy was nothing more than studying past philosophers, it would be a History course.