01-03-2004 11:24									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The position wasn't that semantics don't matter, but basing entire arguments upon semantics is a waste of time.

If what someone said was wrong, either their underlying idea is wrong, or how they crafted the statement was wrong- if the latter, the arguement to coorect them could only be all about semantics, and it would certainly be worthwhile, in in fact, is part of what you argue, NO?

quote: It was a theory before it was accepted as fact. It's no longer refered to as the Theory of Gravity, but the Universal Law of Gravitation.

HOw could an "absolute truth" ever need a theory stage? Why wasn't it self evident to all of humanity all of history? After all, people saw it in action daily-why, were people that stupid not to GET IT!? Its gravity after all, an absolute truth!!!

quote: Argh. I wonder why Philosophers always claim Newton was a Philosopher? Newton was a scientist, not a philosopher.

A scientist is a philospher of a kind- we had this debate before. In fact, the whole basis for this arguement of your is, you guessed it, SEMANTICS! Funny that.

quote: I'm not sure why you're trying to use gravity as an example of philosophy being useful. Is it because 10 millenia before Newton did his studies, some fat philosopher pondered "why did things fall?" and somehow gets credit for it all?

You brough up gravity, not me. I was though,a nd you ignore it, making the point that your claim about "useless knowledge" is very relevant to science. After all, why scientist at all? All we need is a bunch of engineers. They will be the ones to actually make things, not the scientist with their heads stuck up in esoteric clouds, no?

quote: This is a worthless argument, and I thought you were part of the last thread where this was dismissed. My argument is based upon current philosophy, which is VERY different from Philosophy 1000 years ago.

Lets lay i down for you- earlier in the thread, Agathon posted something which is seems everyone but you understood- now, lets take you and give you Schopenhaur: would you be able to digest what he said? MOst likely not. You keep arguing that is all philosophers do is refer to past ideas (and how many orignal ideas can there be? interesting philosophical question), they are nothing more thn historians. Where you are false is that you need the training to be able to uinderstand what a philosopher is saying: any moron can get "in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue...". But give any moron Nietszche for example, and of they go killing the subhumans. Ideas are power, and you need ot know how to handle them and digest them. Even if philosophers in the past 50 years have not added significantly to the body of ideas, they are necessary to train the masses in how to understand what has precedded us, lest these people misnterpret and cause a mess.

	01-03-2004 11:27									#122
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quote: The wording was exceptionally poor. Good is not defined. "Aggregation" is a really poor word choice, as well.

You know what they say...

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

	01-03-2004 11:43									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm referring to the existence of gravity, not the cause of. No one doubts that it exists -- so therefore, is it not correct to say it's existence is absolutely certain?

Gravity is not something that can be observed directly. You can of course observe that what goes up tends to go down, or that bodies tend to attract each other. Gravity is a mecanism that has been formulated by scientists to explain why these things happen.

To answer your question, I would put it this way:

- no one has a good reason to doubt the facts (that what goes up must go down, or that bodies tend to attract each other...)
- no one has a good reason to doubt that gravity exists.

I prefer to remain cautious and not say "hence it certainly exists." History teaches us that each time somebody claimed that this or that was certain, it turned out that they were wrong. Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're wrong on this point. But we could be.

	01-03-2004 11:46									#124
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Agathon, as I recall, last time we debated something substantial (the "killing one to save 10" and "personal responsibility" debate) I kicked your ass and several others on here who normally don't agree with me said so.

So, right, Asher's just like me. Laugh it up, because either that means he kicked your ass last time, or it means that he didn't, and you don't know what you're talking about.

That said, I agree with you. Philosophy does have value, and many teachers are idiots.

	01-03-2004 11:46									#125
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If what someone said was wrong, either their underlying idea is wrong, or how they crafted the statement was wrong- if the latter, the arguement to coorect them could only be all about semantics, and it would certainly be worthwhile, in in fact, is part of what you argue, NO?

First of all I'd like to say the syntax of this sentence is terrible.
Second of all, semantics are important, again. But I find it amazing just how often Philosophical debates boil down to semantics, which Agathon gorgeously proved here with the Utilitarianism nonsense.

quote: HOw could an "absolute truth" ever need a theory stage? Why wasn't it self evident to all of humanity all of history? After all, people saw it in action daily-why, were people that stupid not to GET IT!? Its gravity after all, an absolute truth!!!

Actually, you're correct -- though I doubt you mean to be. Tell me one person who wouldn't assume gravity would exist if they dropped an Apple.

See? Absolute truth.

quote: A scientist is a philospher of a kind- we had this debate before. In fact, the whole basis for this arguement of your is, you guessed it, SEMANTICS! Funny that.

This is true, it is semantics. But it's a massive semantic difference, in the fault of Philosophers trying to steal credit for a Scientist's work as a credit to Philosophy.

quote: You brough up gravity, not me. I was though,a nd you ignore it, making the point that your claim about "useless knowledge" is very relevant to science. After all, why scientist at all? All we need is a bunch of engineers. They will be the ones to actually make things, not the scientist with their heads stuck up in esoteric clouds, no?

Engineers are scientists, just applied scientists. In order for science to work for society, you need the theory people and the application people.

I see what you're trying to do, but it doesn't fly -- research scientists do are undoubtedly helping for a better society, while there is no evidence for the same of modern philosophers.

quote: Even if philosophers in the past 50 years have not added significantly to the body of ideas, they are necessary to train the masses in how to understand what has precedded us, lest these people misnterpret and cause a mess.

I don't understand why the masses need training in the theory of an "evil genius" controlling our actions. Please explain its use...

	01-03-2004 15:40									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Your record is kind of broken... you have been trashed EVERY time we have debated... you were the only one that didn't think so... so crap...

IIRC I've only ever seriously argued with you about private golf clubs (what a subject) and I won't yield anything on that despite what anyone says.

IIRC I spent most of the thread trying to explain to you that you can treat the sexes differently without it being wrongfully discriminatory - an elementary logical point which you refused to understand.

In fact, with all due respect, you tend to misuse the word "logical" in a flagrant fashion - accusing people of being illogical when their logic is perfect (they may be making other mistakes, but not logical mistakes).

If you want to start the golf thing again, be my guest. You don't scare me at all - at least as a debater.

	01-03-2004 15:48									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Asher They tend to use overly-complex language, riddled with Philosopher-specific jargon, and then attack people on semantics in a debate rather than the content. Exhibit C: Boris vs. Agathon and Agathon assuming "utilitarian = Utilitarian", and basing an argument on the semantics of how one defines "Utilitarianism".

I have no idea. If you want the OED definition it is either what I said, or a related adjective meaning "useful rather than attractive". To describe doctrines it is only used in my sense - I don't know anyone whose beliefs are that everything is useful and nothing is attractive.

quote: They are not open to the possiblility that perhaps they're out of their league and making an ass out of themsevles. Exhibit D: Agathon's unrelenting denial that Fitts' law is a mathematical law.

Not just me. And I don't think I denied it, I just said it was dubious. And it's you who DanSed on that one sir.

	01-03-2004 15:51									#128
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Agathon, as I recall, last time we debated something substantial (the "killing one to save 10" and "personal responsibility" debate) I kicked your ass and several others on here who normally don't agree with me said so.

Well, that makes them extremely stupid. I posted that same argument in another thread recently and someone saved their own copy because they liked it so much.

All you demonstrated in that thread was (a) your own propensity for tirelessly posting long after you have been whupped; and (b) the version of Libertarianism you believe in is a ridiculous waste of time.

	01-03-2004 16:00									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, because utilitarianism is not Utilitarianism. It's a mistake Agathon made. The definition of utilitarianism is: The belief that the value of a thing or an action is determined by its utility.[/q].

And I was wrong how?

I see here an acceptance of consequentialism (the idea that the value of an action lies in its consequences) and an account of the good (utility - usually defined as welfare or preference satisfaction).

They left out the aggregation bit, but it is implicit in what they said (more utility is better).

I believe that's what I said.

	01-03-2004 16:07									#130
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Not keeping in spirit with most of this thread, but I have seen how lecturers (@ Cambridge) grade some papers. My supervisor had a stack of 3rd year medic exams, and was marking them whilst having a barbecue and drinking (slightly too much). It took him about 3 minutes per paper (average length about 7 pages). Just from looking at keywords he went... 2.1, 2.2, 3rd. Crappy layout, writing got deducted a grade level.

Admittedly he hated doing it, but it kind of shocked when i saw it.

They also let us (grad students) mark the practical classes. Trust me when I say that Cambridge students aren't as smart as they make out...

	01-03-2004 17:48									#131
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quote: All you demonstrated in that thread was (a) your own propensity for tirelessly posting

Which seemed to be necessary because you couldn't get it through your head that it is unreasonable to hold me responsible for the crimes committed by others.

	01-03-2004 17:58									#132
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Which seemed to be necessary because you couldn't get it through your head that it is unreasonable to hold me responsible for the crimes committed by others.

The point of the argument was that you are responsible when it comes to choosing the lesser of two evils - even if this choice is forced on you by another. That's called common sense. If the choices of someone else cause you to have to make a decision between ten deaths and one, you are culpable if you don't choose one (not solely culpable, but culpable nonetheless).

Consider a field medic who has the decision of whether to save two lives or one. He is not responsible for shooting any of the three, yet he is clearly delinquent in his duty if he saves only the one. On your view it's OK if he does nothing and all three die - which just shows that Libertarians don't care about human life, because they don't care about minimizing loss of life.

Get that through your head.

	01-03-2004 18:01									#133
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While I will say that your field medic example is contrived and irrelevant to the main point, I won't jack the thread any more. Start a new one and we'll rehash it, if you want.

	01-03-2004 18:03									#134
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Contrived? That sort of example happens all the time.

Go read the old thread. I'm not wasting another 300 posts in the futile cause of persuading you of the obvious.

	01-03-2004 18:43									#135
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where to start?

Asher, I guess.

There is nothing worse than a scientist who rejects everything that does not fit their definition of science.

No religious fundamentalist was ever more righteous than these "scientists".

I suspect this is because they have a deep need to be able to explain everything with certainty, understand everything without ambiguity. Anything that complicates matters is a threat.

Witness the vitriol- "get a real job" argument. Asher, I would (and have) made the argument that the world would be far better off if we put a moratorium on the development of technology. I have no confidence in technology to solve the today's world's problems. It is at least as likely to create a problem as it is to ameliorate one. Maybe if we could stop being distracted by G4 and G5 processors for a while, we could try understanding what is inside us, and stop blowing each other up.

I really find the "blind faith" of scientists more troubling than that of "religionists". Religionists at least recognize the faith part, and object only to the blind.

In conclusion, philosophy has tremendous value. Many people refuse to try philosophy, because it may upset their world view.

	01-03-2004 19:10									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The point of the argument was that you are responsible when it comes to choosing the lesser of two evils - even if this choice is forced on you by another. That's called common sense. If the choices of someone else cause you to have to make a decision between ten deaths and one, you are culpable if you don't choose one (not solely culpable, but culpable nonetheless). Consider a field medic who has the decision of whether to save two lives or one. He is not responsible for shooting any of the three, yet he is clearly delinquent in his duty if he saves only the one. On your view it's OK if he does nothing and all three die - which just shows that Libertarians don't care about human life, because they don't care about minimizing loss of life. Get that through your head.

Reality is not as simple as your construct. If the person I choose to save is a physician, for example, he may save more lives than the 10 that I chose not to save.

EDIT: fixed the words that moved around in the sentence (by themselves).

	01-03-2004 19:41									#137
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quote: Contrived? That sort of example happens all the time.

But it misses the point. Of course those in medical fields are expected to make those decisions - that's what they signed up for. They agreed to voluntarily take responsibility for treating the greatest possible number of patients - it's called triage.

That example has nothing to do with the example presented - essentially, someone tells me to either kill one person at random or they will kill ten people. Can you perhaps see the difference?

quote: Go read the old thread. I'm not wasting another 300 posts in the futile cause of persuading you of the obvious.

"The obvious"? Well, in your opinion, "the obvious" is that a murderer can transfer a portion of his responsibility to me, simply by trying to require me to kill someone. That's ridiculous.

	01-03-2004 19:47									#138
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Aggy

Usually, students from o/s a department will, like Asher, lack context, knowledge, and skills required to perform at an acceptable level. They may also, like Asher, fail to value the course they are taking that seems to them to be outside their sphere of interest.

Lack of performance is more often indicative of lack of interest than lack of ability.

That said, I'm sure it is very frustrating dealing with it.

Why do people become teachers? For many, it is a calling. For many, it is a landing space they fall into.

I have a question for you. How does learning for the sake of learning relate to the practice of giving marks? What function do letter grades have? Other than a short term carrot & stick, that is...

I have recently begun to think that we should be evaluating education two years after the teaching of a given curriculum. Who cares what you managed to cram into your short term memory? What did you take away to help you for the rest of your life?

I'm not suggesting that we don't monitor and give feedback on work on an timely basis. But I am quite confident that marks are an extremely crude, wholly inaccurate indicator of education and of ability.

	01-03-2004 20:05									#139
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Asher, my dear boy, Newton was an alchemist and justifiably as much a philosopher as a scientist. Besides, scientists are just a branch of philosophy that managed to get its own tree. We're empiricists and sceptics in the same tradition as Aristotle and Hume. Besides, didn't you ever stop to consider why the ultimate qualification for a scientist is their Ph.D., ie, their Doctorate of Philosophy?

Besides, there's no such thing as "absolute truth" and any decent scientist worth is salt would acknowledge that. "The Truth" is really only the explanation that best fits the majority of the evidence. Hell, Newtonian-Einsteinian physics could be thrown out the window tomorrow if a better explanation came along. Since we're human, we assume that gravity will work across all of Earth but we can never discount the chance that it may not. 99.999999999% likelihood != 100% likelihood.

Computer scientists. Bah. Glorified scriptkiddies with a maths fetish.

	02-03-2004 23:10									#140
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quote: Computer scientists. Bah. Glorified scriptkiddies with a maths fetish.

	03-03-2004 04:43									#141
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quote: The only thing truly useful that is "taught" by philosophy is logic.

Anyone else find it funny that the biggest Microsoft backer thinks "ethics" isn't useful .

Anyway, you grade philosophy because in university you grade everything. It's so you aren't just slacking off and actually applying yourself. It leads to future employers realizing you can actually read something and process it, which is a good thing.

Asher has shown he can't understand simple words like the Utilitarianism definition, which EVERYONE else got!

DF, you got spanked in that discussion.

quote: Besides, didn't you ever stop to consider why the ultimate qualification for a scientist is their Ph.D., ie, their Doctorate of Philosophy?

Game. Set. Match.

Aggie thanks you StarChild .

	03-03-2004 04:49									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Besides, there's no such thing as "absolute truth" and any decent scientist worth is salt would acknowledge that.

Very true

	03-03-2004 04:50									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Anyone else find it funny that the biggest Microsoft backer thinks "ethics" isn't useful .

Nobody said ethics isn't useful. I did say having some pretentious academic lecture people on ethics is not useful in any way. It's pushing an agenda and opinion he has, nothing more.

Using your logic from above, without philosophers teaching in Universities we would have no ethics...

Perhaps you should take some remedial philosophy courses, I was apparently too quick to give people credit for such basic things.

quote: Asher has shown he can't understand simple words like the Utilitarianism definition, which EVERYONE else got! DF, you got spanked in that discussion.

Agathon's the one that confused utilitarianism with Utilitarianism, and then he provided a excessively wordy and no doubt precise definition to the philosophical word usage, when it was used (quite obvious) in the colloquial sense. I can understand it fine, but behind each of those words he used like "consequentialism" or whatever, is no doubt another excessively long-winded philosophical definition.

In the end, I'd maintain that only someone who studies philosophy would know exactly what he meant by the definition. Because, as we all know, philosophy is all about the semantics.

quote: quote: Besides, didn't you ever stop to consider why the ultimate qualification for a scientist is their Ph.D., ie, their Doctorate of Philosophy? Game. Set. Match.

Nonsense, I've said this about a hundred times now but for some reason it's hard to sink in for the philosophy types -- the argument isn't past uses of philosophy (including the origin of "PhD"). It's a bit tired how people keep referring to Philosophy back when it was a giant umbrella for anything related to knowledge, and somehow apply that to the trivial crap Philosophers deal with today because all of the truly useful aspects of "knowledge" have since branched out into specialized fields.

	03-03-2004 04:52									#144
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Well, to be frank, the discussions we have about 'science' on 'poly are not really science - they are philosophy. I don't see anything wrong with philosophy, as long as you know its place.

	03-03-2004 04:56									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Well, to be frank, the discussions we have about 'science' on 'poly are not really science - they are philosophy. I don't see anything wrong with philosophy, as long as you know its place.

Huh?
So compsci threads are philosophy threads?

Is this another trick where we apply Philosophy to mean knowledge?

	03-03-2004 06:26									#146
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Whupped, Asher.

Utilitarianism and utilitarianism really boil down to the same thing - as I said, and everyone else understood at first go.

And if you don't like "consequentialism", how about less unwieldy terminology such as "the idea that actions don't have any value except that which their consequences have".

We philosophers should really stop using such terminology and write the full thing out, just like computer folk should throw away the term "Hard Disk" and replace it with "the device in the computer where all your stuff is stored".

Guess you deserve a Ming laugh.

	03-03-2004 06:36									#147
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quote: I did say having some pretentious academic lecture people on ethics is not useful in any way. It's pushing an agenda and opinion he has, nothing more.

Teaching ethics is not useful? Why not? Why is it pushing an agenda if ethics isn't really conducive to having an agenda.

quote: without philosophers teaching in Universities we would have no ethics...

You did notice the smily right? Indicating it was a joke? Or do we need to send you to some sort of remedial class? <-- note: smily!

quote: I can understand it fine, but behind each of those words he used like "consequentialism" or whatever, is no doubt another excessively long-winded philosophical definition.

It's kind of an obvious term. If he wanted to be obnoxious, he could say teleological

quote: I'd maintain that only someone who studies philosophy would know exactly what he meant by the definition.

Boris admited he doesn't know philosophy, yet got it easily.

quote: It's a bit tired how people keep referring to Philosophy back when it was a giant umbrella for anything related to knowledge, and somehow apply that to the trivial crap Philosophers deal with today because all of the truly useful aspects of "knowledge" have since branched out into specialized fields.

But they haven't. Everything leads back to philosophy, because it is the study of knowledge. All sciences have philosophical bases behind them. And I'd think inquiring about knowledge and truth and good stuff like that is truly useful. Just because you are a neanderthal who thinks the only thing 'useful' has practical application doesn't mean we have to accept it .

	03-03-2004 06:47									#148
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And who would study topics like meaning, reference, signification and other linguistic phenomena, if not philosophers?

That's the sort of thing contemporary philosophers do.

	03-03-2004 06:55									#149
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My mother was a highschool teacher, thank you very much, before teaching technical grades and helping in the formation of future teachers.

I don't think she fits the picture in the opening post.

	03-03-2004 07:05									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor My mother was a highschool teacher, thank you very much, before teaching technical grades and helping in the formation of future teachers. I don't think she fits the picture in the opening post.

Probably because she went to college back in the days when there were standards. This is a recent phenomenon. All the older teachers at my high school were good, it was the younger ones who weren't so hot.