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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:33
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quote:
One is not going to have private enterprise doing anything on the Moon or Mars until some governmental organization begins to grant real property deeds and concession rights. I think the US ought to enter into bilateral treaties with countries willing to invest in the development of Mars exploration to set up an interantional agency ala the IMF to issue such deeds and concessions. Participation on the Space IMF board would be proportional to members financial contribution.
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I see little in the way of private capital investment in space except niche industries. Those won't be able in no way to lift the martian economy. In the moon, a futuristic dock industry is quite feasible, as well as mining for rare ores, and the supporting services industries, together with much more realistic tourism.. In Mars, gravity is big problem, and won't be able to support this. the only potential for extracting capital from the red planet back to earth is a very small tourism sector ( consider travel time), and a niche 'martian memorabilia" sector.
In short, the flow of capital between Mars and Earth is quite close to being impossible. Only a massive one-time government investment, that would yield no profits except side-discoveries and technologies, is a feasible way of Martian colonization. After that, with enough people on Mars itself, an independent Martian economy will emerge. It will because it must, and because it makes economical sense. Space is the ultimate trade barrier, and will make domestic production far more viable than any import of goods.
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The Viceroy
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tu mumbai se, mai Bombay se
Nov 2000
time: 05:33
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I think its worth looking to 1492 as an example of what finally made European nations start real hard exploration and colonisation. And I also think its interesting to note, it made superpowers out of them.
The Technology was there to travers the Atlantic long before it was actually completed by the major European nations, as the Vikings will bear witness.
However, it was economics that pushed the vikings there, Economics which got the Europeans interest, and unless we have an economical case to go to mars, it will remain the haunt of scientists and robots.
If we were able to create good sized habitable zones, then there would be much work available, mining, resource transformation, industrial application, food creation ..
Question is, who'd go, knowing there life was dependant on habitable zones ?? well, I can think of a few hundred million people who currently live in area's without access to clean water, earning less than a $1 a day, who's lives are blighted with disease and have no idea where the next meal is coming from ... I think they would move over..
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:33
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Yes, they will bring costs down. But how much down? let's say tenfold. Hell, even two-hundred fold. Trade is still fudged, by costs still being much much more than the product itself, due to transport expenditure. Another big problem is delivery times that would be in the months while ever increasing efficiency on earth makes it days.
AND OF COURSE THIS IS IN THE OPTIMAL CASE OF EARTH AND MARS BEING CLOSE TO EACH OTHER. When they're on different sides of the sun, it sucks. So what can Mars export? raw supplies? Nope. Transport costs will kill it, except in the cases of rare ores. ( which are yet to be discovered on Mars).
manufactured goods? nope. By the time they're on earth, they'd be obsolete/old-fashioned, etc.
The shuttle is a another transshipment point, which is always a minus.
All of these don't bring me to think that Mars shouldn't be colonized. Mars has the resources to create good living conditions for about a billion more people, and that's a good enough reason to go.
What I claim is that earth will have to fund it with no return, and that Mars will be established as an almost complete autarky (Except information, and even that will be mass media, and scienfic, and technological data, and not interactive content, which is gaining more and more ground on earth).
It will be much like a modern-day parent raising their kids fully knowing that it's not profitable, but doing it anyway.
( That's a whole different issue, btw. We should make it profitable, to a limit )
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:33
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Not just costs, speed.
http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/research/pro.html
http://www.spacetransportation.com/.../9C_Turner.html
quote:
A particularly promising approach for space propulsion, among several competing concepts that are beyond our modern technical capabilities, is a pulsed thermonuclear fusion thruster wherein neutron-lean microfusion detonations are initiated and expelled by a magnetic nozzle, as seen in Figure 1. The charged particle expansion velocity in these detonations can be on the order of 106 - 107 m/s and if effectively collimated by a magnetic nozzle, can yield the Isp and acceleration levels needed for practical interplanetary flight. Methods for inductively extracting electrical power from the compressed magnetic field can also be envisioned. This is an integral component of the
scheme since the energy needed to ignite the subsequent detonation is extremely high. In any case, the long-term development of space propulsion/power systems based on a highenergy- density detonation scheme presents several practical engineering obstacles with respect to effective containment of the plasma and efficient compression of the magnetic field. For example, to achieve satisfactory confinement and high compression efficiency, it is extremely important to minimize magnetic diffusion losses into the plasma and into the reaction chamber wall. Along these lines, NASA MSFC and UAH are jointly exploring various propulsion/power schemes based on the compression of a magnetic field between a high magnetic Reynolds number expanding plasma armature and a highly conductive stator shell[1]. The team is currently conducting basic research utilizing a small pulse plasma gun to produce a high-speed, high-temperature plasma jet. This configuration is useful for investigating flux compression and plasmadynamic processes of relevance to the pulsed microfusion propulsion concept. A critical need is the reliable measurement of plasma jet electrical conductivity. In previous work, we have demonstrated how a simple inductive probe can be used to directly measure the conductivity of each plasma jet[2]. In this previous paper, we described the development of an inductive probe that can utilize the perturbation of a magnetic field by the plasma jet to infer the plasma electrical conductivity. The excitation field was produced by a solenoidal coil, and the field perturbations were detected by a small pick-up coil. Furthermore, this research showed that the plasma jets produced magnetic Reynolds numbers high enough to warrant testing of scaled magnetic flux compression reactors. In this paper, we will describe the ongoing research of magnetic flux compression reactors through the development of a scaled version of a reactor such as seen in Figure 1. |
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:33
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Yeah, I remember that, as well.
I think that we can all agree that a permament 'commercial' settlement of the moon first is the way to go. And the fun thing is, the more we get into space, the more profitable the moon will be. ( metal in space)
Once again, we have to ponder, though, the needed industries. I think that the moon must be independent in terms of life support, energy, as well as maintain facilities of mining, and smelting of the needed metals, as well as manufacturing of many basic, and intermediate components for maintenance, like bolts, screws, manual tools, machine spare parts.
Here comes another great benefit. To make it REALLY work, standards of machines by different manufacturers, etc. will have to converge, since special new standards for the moon will drive initial prices upward a lot. This, coupled with the deregulation of space in terms of testing needed for the tools 'up there', that would come from the ordinary, daily use of these instead of the 'OMG OMG WE'RE ON THE MOON MA!' mentality, will create better efficiency.
Also, the new models of vehicles and machines will make fossil fuels and the internal combustion engine we all hate to love obsolete.
Thus, a colonization of the moon, will create conditions of need for extreme technological adaptation and prowess, as well as ( ironically? not really) forcing more cooperation than competition in the bases themselves ( but not between the different nations that would launch those ).
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