03-03-2004 06:36									#31
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Again... how can he have cheated if there was no rule against it... How about we throw out the records for all the pitchers the cut the ball or used other substances... that is at least against the rules

	03-03-2004 06:37									#32
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We don't judge past conduct on the basis of what the rules are today. Ming is right. You only cheated if you violated the rules of the game at the time you did it.

	03-03-2004 06:42									#33
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If they are stupid enough to get caught now that the rules have changed... hang em... but that would be difficult since MLB has such weak rules on steriods... and even if you get caught, it's no big deal the first time. The owners only did something because of the bad press... they really don't want to change anything.

	03-03-2004 06:43									#34
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Actually they wanted testing for years. The MLBPA bent because of bad press.

	03-03-2004 06:44									#35
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I expect such legalistic horseshit from Imran, but I expected better from you Ming. I can't believe you want to let Bonds slide on this. He's an embarassment to the game.

	03-03-2004 06:44									#36
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Drake, YOU CAN'T CHEAT IF WHAT YOU DID WAS NOT AGAINST THE RULES! This is just basic stuff!

	03-03-2004 06:50									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Which is why the continously brought it up, Guy?

By the media, sure. Owners are under pressure from media and fans to push for drug testing, which is in large part why we have this sham system now. They look good because they are trying to get rid of steroids; but in reality, they keep the parks filled with fans who want to see the big moonshot homerun.

	03-03-2004 06:53									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I expect such legalistic horseshit from Imran, but I expected better from you Ming. I can't believe you want to let Bonds slide on this. He's an embarassment to the game.

Slide on what... he didn't break the rules. If they want to arrest him on criminal charges, fine be me. Do I think he was wrong... personally yeah, but he was within the rules of baseball. So his records should stand. Who knows what other players did long time ago... speed, other drugs... we will never know. But if it's not against the rules, and the league doesn't test for it...

	03-03-2004 06:55									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually they wanted testing for years. The MLBPA bent because of bad press.

While you are correct in theory... I think the owners were paying lip service to it, and were glad to be able to point to the MLPBA and shrug their shoulders, and then smile when nobody was looking.

	03-03-2004 06:56									#40
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Where's the outrage?

	03-03-2004 07:01									#41
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Agreed.

**** like this makes me glad we won't field a baseball team for the Olympics.

	03-03-2004 07:02									#42
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Why should there be? Mantle and Mays took Greenies (which were illegal at that time as well) during the 1950s and 60s. Baseball players since the beginning have taken suppliments.

	03-03-2004 07:18									#43
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Outraged... nah...

diappointed... yeah...

Against the rules... NAH...

	03-03-2004 07:21									#44
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Gee, whatever happened to Nancy Reagan and JUST SAY NO TO DRUGS?

	03-03-2004 07:23									#45
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I'm for legalization .

	03-03-2004 07:30									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm for legalization .

You disagree on something from the Reagan Whitehouse????

	03-03-2004 07:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Gee, whatever happened to Nancy Reagan and JUST SAY NO TO DRUGS?

She went to the Betty Ford clinic for rehab... then relapsed, before dying of an overdose on the toilet. Sad... truly sad.

	03-03-2004 07:52									#48
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This reminds me of an Onion article where the players association demanded in a negotiation that the MLB "look the other way" if a player's home runs suddenly quintuple

	03-03-2004 11:13									#49
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I was going to make a thread on this.

In this case an Astericks is definately needed next to the Home Run record.

And I don't acknowledge Sammy Sosa (corked bats) and Mark McGuire's (suppliments) records either. Same with Maris (extra games played)

Babe Ruth is still king.

	03-03-2004 11:16									#50
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quote: In this case an Astericks is definately needed next to the Home Run record.

Why?

Did The Babe not take any suppliments? He didn't pop any pills?

	03-03-2004 11:23									#51
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He was too busy drinking, smoking, ****ing and eating to take any steroids...

	03-03-2004 11:31									#52
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Not saying steroids, but pill popping in general. Just because he was carousing, doesn't mean he wasn't being helped along by 'illegal substances'.

	03-03-2004 12:22									#53
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Apparently ethics mean *squat* anymore. I love how some crow about "it ain't against the rules!" I don't give a damn. Ever hear of ethics, folks? Yeah, some folks still have 'em, but it's getting rarer and rarer it seems.

Gatekeeper

	03-03-2004 12:42									#54
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Seriously, MLB better come down hard on this or I'm going to stop watching. I put up with all the other bullshit baseball has put the fans through, but if they let these guys off with a slap on the wrist, that's the last straw.

	03-03-2004 13:00									#55
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The stats don't lie. Bonds hit waaaay too many home runs that year.

What you guys don't understand is stats has always been a big part of baseball. The hardcore fans live and die with stats. And all the stats are being ruined.

I can care less if it wasn't against the rules. The fact is, it is ruining the baseball in the long term for short term gains.

	03-03-2004 13:04									#56
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quote: The stats don't lie. Bonds hit waaaay too many home runs that year.

You don't even need to look at his stats; just look at his hat size. His skull has grown several sizes in recent years, which only happens if you're on the juice. People who were paying attention knew Bonds was cheating a long time before this latest revelation.

quote: I can care less if it wasn't against the rules. The fact is, it is ruining the baseball in the long term for short term gains.

	03-03-2004 18:07									#57
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I hope they do actually enforce the rules this year, and strenthen the penalities if people are caught... But I wouldn't expect them to come down on people who never broke the rules. While you can be outraged all you want, and talk about ethics... blame MLB for not doing something about it earlier...

As far as not wanting to watch baseball anymore, your choice. But the Sosa/McGwire show woke baseball up and raised attendence... they have gained more than they will lose, and that's why MLB looked the other way.

	03-03-2004 21:25									#58
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quote: What you guys don't understand is stats has always been a big part of baseball. The hardcore fans live and die with stats. And all the stats are being ruined.

In that case do we have to go back and check how Greenies helped Mays and Mantle so we can restore integrity to the stats? I mean, it is no secret that Mantle was popping suppliments in the locker room. One need only to read "Ball Four" by Jim Bouton.

For once, I actually agree with Ming

	03-03-2004 21:38									#59
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Imran,

First off I agree with those who say the owners are just paying lipservice to the issue, knowing full well the evil (yes, evil) MLBPA will bail them out by refusing. The owners don't want testing either.

The only people who want testing are fans and players not using - but there is tremendous pressure on players not to harm their fellow players (ah, back to that good 'ole union). So that leaves the fans, and the media, which likes to think it represents us.

*sigh*

...

"Where is the outrage?"

I'm past it. I had it, and now I'm done. It's been a couple of years now since that reporter went up to Sammy Sosa and asked him to come to a clinic with him and get tested (because Slammin' Sammy had said something like "I want to be tested" to clear his name or somesuch) and Sosa went ballistic on the guy. And that's just my recent memory. Big Mac's andro thing did not pass totally unnoticed by me, but even then I wasn't particularly surprised. LOOK AT HIM.

It goes back longer than that. Far longer. And nothing much has ever been done about it.

The reason I don't care to muster outrage is that I know it's useless. First off, I already have pretty much stopped actually going to games. I watch on TV, but I'm done with paying $20 for upper deck seats. Second, my opinion of the MLBPA, the Commissioner, and the owners is already as low as it can get. It can sink no farther. So what is their to be outraged about?

It's more like numb despair.

Yet I still enjoy the game. Go figure.

-Arrian

	03-03-2004 21:43									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I hope they do actually enforce the rules this year, and strenthen the penalities if people are caught...

How exactly are you going to catch them without testing?