03-03-2004 21:47									#61
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quote: How exactly are you going to catch them without testing?

Don't you read threads? The answer you seek is located within .

	03-03-2004 21:47									#62
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Well, if you are going to take away the records of these guys, better get rid of Gaylord Perry's 300+ wins and kick him out of the hall.

He cheated, admitted he cheated, and got away with it.

ACK!

	03-03-2004 21:48									#63
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All I saw was a pedantic discussion that sterioid use isn't really cheating and everyone does it anyway coming from you and Ming.

	03-03-2004 21:55									#64
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc All I saw was a pedantic discussion that sterioid use isn't really cheating and everyone does it anyway coming from you and Ming.

Uhhhh... no. I was stating that steriod use was NOT against the rules in the past and they have never tested the players for it in the past, so to label players who had done so in the past as cheaters isn't acurate. And I stated their records should stand, because they didn't violate any rules. This year, the rules have now changed, and anybody caught should be treated harsher than the current rules allow... and I never implied that everyone was doing it....

But besides that... you seem to have the general gist of the thread

	03-03-2004 22:01									#65
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ACK!

	03-03-2004 22:01									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ming and I never implied that everyone was doing it....

That was Imran with his idiotic Ruth comment.

quote: Originally posted by Ming Uhhhh... no. I was stating that steriod use was NOT against the rules in the past and they have never tested the players for it in the past, so to label players who had done so in the past as cheaters isn't acurate.

Like I said. People argueing that steroid use isn't really cheating.

I seem to have the general thrust of the thread down. Despite sarcastic smilies.

	03-03-2004 22:18									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That was Imran with his idiotic Ruth comment. Like I said. People argueing that steroid use isn't really cheating. I seem to have the general thrust of the thread down. Despite sarcastic smilies.

Of course steroid use is cheating, however, until this year it wasn't against the rules.

ACK!

	03-03-2004 22:31									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Of course steroid use is cheating, however, until this year it wasn't against the rules.

Cheating is usually defined as breaking the rules. Players have been doing many things throughout the years to enhance their performance. Everything from working out with weights, better diets, vitamins, other supplements, drugs like speed, pain killers, and yeah, steroids. Until MLB outlawed the use of steriods, I don't see how the term "cheater" can be used.

	03-03-2004 22:33									#69
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quote: People argueing that steroid use isn't really cheating.

It wasn't. Now it will be.

quote: That was Imran with his idiotic Ruth comment.

How is it idiotic when it is true?

	03-03-2004 22:33									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Cheating is usually defined as breaking the rules. Players have been doing many things throughout the years to enhance their performance. Everything from working out with weights, better diets, vitamins, other supplements, drugs like speed, pain killers, and yeah, steroids. Until MLB outlawed the use of steriods, I don't see how the term "cheater" can be used.

Cheating is having an unfair advantage over somoene else. Since the rules did not ban use of drugs, ion theory all players were free to use them, thus giving no real unfair advantage to those who took drugs, since the other simply opted out of taking them.

	03-03-2004 22:39									#71
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I think the baseball records should be seperated by eras... deadball... modern... then "steroid"

the entire era should have an asteriks next to it... some players didn't do steroids, but, it's almost impossible to prove who did and who didn't. We can guess and speculate, but because other factors have increased home run totals also: dilluted pitching skill due to expansion, smaller ballparks, juiced players, new bat designs, new ball designs.

	03-03-2004 22:43									#72
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quote: the entire era should have an asteriks next to it... some players didn't do steroids, but, it's almost impossible to prove who did and who didn't.

What about Speed in the 50s and 60s? They deserve asteriks?

	03-03-2004 23:36									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Of course steroid use is cheating, however, until this year it wasn't against the rules. ACK!

My sentiments.

I hope this issue is discussed over the summer. If there is enough outrage at this, perhaps baseball will do something. I still feel it is a outrage that Bonds 73 will be there for all history because in the future players will be tested and will have to break THAT record fairly. It might be impossilble, which makes it UNFAIR to everyone involved in the game, for all time.

World records in track and field are not recognized for cheats no matter how the cheating is done. We really need to do something about those home run records.

	03-03-2004 23:37									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: the entire era should have an asteriks next to it... some players didn't do steroids, but, it's almost impossible to prove who did and who didn't. What about Speed in the 50s and 60s? They deserve asteriks?

It wasn't quite a problem back then as steroids is now.

	03-03-2004 23:40									#75
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I grew up watching guys win home run titles with number from 35-40. Every year.

Then we have little guys who hit the ball off the end of their bat and it goes out. Wonder how that makes a guy like Mike Schmidt feel?

No, I gave up following pro baseball a long time ago and I do not miss it. But each year I look forward to spring and hearing the mitts pop. I'll stick with the kids where the dreams aren't about money.

	04-03-2004 00:10									#76
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Hear, hear!

	04-03-2004 00:20									#77
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quote: It wasn't quite a problem back then as steroids is now.

The people around then seem to think it was just as big a deal then as steroids are now. Popping pills before every game is a pretty big deal, no?

	04-03-2004 00:23									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It wasn't quite a problem back then as steroids is now. The people around then seem to think it was just as big a deal then as steroids are now. Popping pills before every game is a pretty big deal, no?

People back then also thought inter-racial marriage was a threat to civilization and that reefer madness was true... so take stuff from that era with a grain of salt

	04-03-2004 00:25									#79
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quote: People back then also thought inter-racial marriage was a threat to civilization and that reefer madness was true... so take stuff from that era with a grain of salt

So thoughts of people during that era makes the facts that people saw things going on less likely to be true?

	04-03-2004 00:31									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think the baseball records should be seperated by eras... deadball... modern... then "steroid"

Were you listening to the SCORE this morning. I heard the same thing on Murphy in the Morning.

	04-03-2004 01:07									#81
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Ming, that refrerence to Score (whatever that is) does seem to indicate that the debate on this issue has begun in places other than Apolyton. That is healthy.

	04-03-2004 01:11									#82
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The SCORE = WSCR, the Chicago Sports Radio station. Sava is also a listener. The same comment was made this morning, so was just wondering if he had been listening as well

	05-03-2004 12:41									#83
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This may be the dumbest thing I've ever read...

Is it steroids or sour grapes?

	05-03-2004 12:44									#84
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Oh yeah... Wiley blames EVERYTHING on racism. Best not to read him at all.

	06-03-2004 00:39									#85
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As to the records of Bonds etc., part of the thrill was the thought that they were doing the "impossible." Now that the truth is out that they cheated, people are going to be angry about what happened and are going to be highly suspicious of anyone on a record pace. I think Bonds is going to be roundly booed this season. The powers that be who think that ignoring the problem of cheated records are going to have a shock when the seanson opens and the fans show how they feel about this.

	06-03-2004 01:28									#86
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quote: Now that the truth is out that they cheated

No one cheated. If it isn't against the rules, it isn't cheating.

	06-03-2004 05:29									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Now that the truth is out that they cheated No one cheated. If it isn't against the rules, it isn't cheating.

Then why, my dear Imran, do they hide it?

	06-03-2004 05:39									#88
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quote: Then why, my dear Imran, do they hide it?

Because it's against the law... which is different than the rules of baseball.

	06-03-2004 05:46									#89
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Are we still on this inane tangent? The real question you people should be asking is weather or not the steroid use calls into question the validity of the records he obtained while using them. If you feel they do, then an * next to them is the least he deserves.

	06-03-2004 05:52									#90
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I don't... because they've been using supplements for years and years.