06-03-2004 05:56									#91
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So you believe that records obtained through the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs has no bearing on the validity of the stats he got or has no adverse effect on the athletes that aren't using them?

	06-03-2004 06:02									#92
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But that's the point... according to MLB... they were NOT illegal.

	06-03-2004 06:08									#93
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Ming we can play these semantic games if you want but you and I both know the use of these drugs has had a corrosive effect on the integrity of the game and sports in general.

	06-03-2004 06:09									#94
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quote: So you believe that records obtained through the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs has no bearing on the validity of the stats he got or has no adverse effect on the athletes that aren't using them?

If I was mad at that, I'd have to be mad at the stats put up by Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, and I'm not. It'd be the height of hypocracy to say Barry's records are illegitimate and hold up Mantle's and Mays's at the same time. Not to mention George Brett and Mike Schmidt.

	06-03-2004 06:11									#95
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No.. I don't "know" that... I"m sorry. Baseball didn't care enought, so why should I. There are a lot of things that can enhance performance... and unless the league outlaws them... they are fair game. It was NOT illegal to use them... I'm surprised more didn't.

	06-03-2004 06:14									#96
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And, remember, Bonds had plenty of MVPs before people thought he was all on steroids.

	06-03-2004 07:50									#97
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Bonds is a cheat. What he did may not have technically been against the rules, but it definitely was an underhanded act that gave him an unfair advantage over the competition, which is my definition of "cheating".

	06-03-2004 07:51									#98
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IT WASN'T UNFAIR. Any of them could do it. Otherwise, practicing is "cheating"

	06-03-2004 07:52									#99
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sadly, I think Ming's correct. McGuire was taking something that he admitted. It was a pre-steroid that you can buy legitimately in many nuitritional supplement stores (like GNC). The body converts it to testosterone. It's a technical way of getting around not being able to get steroids, make your body produce more of them.

Androstenedione.

I've seen some recent articles to the effect it doesn't really work, because the effect is too short lived, and it isn't involved in making all the necessary precursors.

	06-03-2004 07:53									#100
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quote: IT WASN'T UNFAIR. Any of them could do it. Otherwise, practicing is "cheating"

Oh, so you think it's fair to expect every player in Major League Baseball to destroy their bodies with steroids in order to keep up with cheats like Bonds who weren't content with their natural abilities?

	06-03-2004 07:55									#101
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Well, Bonds thought it was an OK tradeoff. If the other people don't want to do it, it's their decision.

I think it's unfair to expect people to exert all that effort to train! And there's the chance that you'll pull something! You can't expect people to expose themselves to that sort of risk

	06-03-2004 07:57									#102
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This has to be a troll...

	06-03-2004 07:58									#103
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DUH

It's called "sarcasm".

	06-03-2004 08:26									#104
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Ain't against the rules, which means it wasn't an unfair advantage. Any other player could have done it.

	06-03-2004 08:28									#105
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quote: Any other player could have done it.

Yeah, if they break the law by using an illegal substance that slowly destroys their body.

You guys are unreal.

	06-03-2004 08:32									#106
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If it ain't against the rules, it isn't an unfair advantage.

	06-03-2004 08:49									#107
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I guess MLB players should start poisoning their competition, as well, since I'm pretty sure there's no rule against it. And hey, if you get poisoned by Barry Bonds, don't cry foul; it's not unfair because you should've been poisonining him too...

	06-03-2004 08:50									#108
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Actually I believe it is. You can't tamper with opposing players under baseball's rules.

	06-03-2004 08:54									#109
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You aren't tampering with "opposing players". You're just tampering with food or drink that happens to be in those opposing player's lockers. They don't have to consume it if they don't want to, so the liability for those actions is on their head.

God, being a lawyer is so fun. Forgetting about my conscience is so freeing...

	06-03-2004 08:56									#110
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While what Bonds did may have been illegal, it absolutely wasn't cheating. Cheating requires knowingly breaking the rules, and there weren't any rules against it at the time. If it ain't against the rules, it ain't cheating, simple as that.

	06-03-2004 08:58									#111
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I don't know where you guys get off constraining "cheating" to such a narrow definition. It also encompasses fraud of all kinds, which Bond's home-run record most certainly is.

	06-03-2004 09:02									#112
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Well, Imran and Ming, I find it more than interesting that the use of an illegal drug to enhance performance is not in your words cheating if it is not against the rules as if there were no omnibus rule somewhere that covers this topic. I believe, though, that there is. It is called "the interest of baseball." All prior commissioners prior to Selig used this "interests of baseball" rule to keep it honest and the game clean. Did the election of Selig mark a new era where crime pays? I doubt it. It is just that Selig is a tool of the game rather than a real commissioner.

Congress needs to look closely at revoking the league's antitrust exemption unless they again appoint a real commissioner who is honest.

But just let me also say that your attitude is remarkable for it lack of concern for fair play.

Last edited by Ned on 06-03-2004 at 09:09

	06-03-2004 09:02									#113
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quote: You aren't tampering with "opposing players". You're just tampering with food or drink that happens to be in those opposing player's lockers

Which is intended to tamper with the opposing player. If you are going to act like a lawyer, at least do it right. Mens rea is absolutely vital.

quote: I don't know where you guys get off constraining "cheating" to such a narrow definition. It also encompasses fraud of all kinds, which Bond's home-run record most certainly is.

So the spitball pitchers of the 1900s, before they were banned, were cheaters?

And how is it 'fraud' of any kind or shape? You act like no single baseball player has ever taken any supplements.

	06-03-2004 09:02									#114
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How is it fraud? Did he not really hit those home runs?

Cheating in the context of a game refers to breaking the rules, and that's certainly the way sports organizations use it. It's you who are stretching the definition.

What Bonds did may have been immoral and illegal, but so long as it was ok by baseball rules, he shouldn't be penalized by the organization for it.

	06-03-2004 09:11									#115
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quote: How is it fraud? Did he not really hit those home runs?

He wouldn't have been able to if he hadn't been using illegal performance-enhancing drugs. He only got the home run record because of this unfair advantage, which seems like cheating to me.

quote: What Bonds did may have been immoral and illegal, but so long as it was ok by baseball rules, he shouldn't be penalized by the organization for it.

I hope, for baseball's sake, that MLB doesn't follow yours and Imran's absurd arguments. Bonds cheated and needs to be punished. If he isn't, the game will suffer.

	06-03-2004 09:12									#116
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How is it an absurd argument?! It's NOT AGAINST THE RULES OF THE GAME!

	06-03-2004 09:14									#117
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Semantic arguments are almost invariably absurd. This case is no different. If your entire defense of Bonds rests on the definition of one word, you don't have much to stand on.

	06-03-2004 09:20									#118
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Your entire condemnation of Bonds rests on the definition of ONE word. So I guess you don't have much to stand on either, by your logic?

And, besides, you are using the word wrongly. If you consider correcting your wrong usage of a word 'semantic', then so be it.

Ming, me, AND Boris have said you are wrong. I mean, since when have us three agreed on anything?

	06-03-2004 09:21									#119
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No, the defense of Bonds rests on the fact that what he did WAS NOT AGAINST THE RULES. Isn't it a little arbitrary to be penalizing players for things that aren't agains the rules? Would you feel comfortable being subject to a legal system that operated in such a manner?

"Hey, what you did isn't *technically* against the law, but we don't like it, so we're sending your ass to jail anyway!"

Just who has the absurd position here?

	06-03-2004 09:22									#120
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Ah ex post facto judgments, gotta love them Boris .