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Pax
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I agree to what Theben wholeheartedly.
I became aware of race at 7 when some white people where constantly calling my house shouting "nigger, go back ti africa!" and hanging up. Where I'm from, race for the most part was not an issue because almost everyone was black. Joining the navy and going from a situation where I was in the majority to the minority was a culture shock. In Atlanta, I experienced racism of the sort where a stranger might shout nigger!! out of there car or even throw a rock. In the navy, it was up close and personal. I came into contact with people who had gained impressions from blacks from a distance. I often felt surrounded. The navy like american soicety has changed and is changing.
This thread is bringing back memories. All the derogatory terms that I've heard. Of all of them, there is only one that blacks actually use and why would you are anyone else have such a big problem with how i speak to another black person. it's like gay marriage which I am for. Let people live how they want to as long as it does not hurt you.
I don 't think that if I say"That's my nigga." Meaning that's my friend. I'm watching his back. I don't think that will hurt you David. That also does not mean that that person is trying to be "gangsta" as you say because we/they got the word from their parents who got the word from their parents. Each time these people used the word they used it in the same way as I just showed. If the mainstream culture has another meaning for the word then that's okay to. When you use the word I understand that you are using in the way you were taught. I do not believe that a bunch of people go together and said let's depower the word nigger. It simply does not have the same meaning. Trying to force a change is unnatural. It's similar to what the french are doing today because they don't like the number of english words getting into common usage in france. French people call email email for example. The government has officially come out with a french name for it to insist the people to use.
Using the word nigger does not lead to laziness or drug use. It does not lead to crime or uneducation.
Lastly, if Africa is a shithole it's because the colonizers left it that way.
"Let no one say and to your shame that all was fine until you came." I learned that in the BSA.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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quote:
Lastly, if Africa is a shithole it's because the colonizers left it that way. |
Africa, for the most part, was a shithole - or unpopulated - before the colonizers came, too. Underdeveloped, little technology, little infrastructure, etc.
And that still misses the point, which is that the US, today, is far superior than even a non-colonized Africa could ever have been, in terms of standard of living, economy, technology, etc.
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Pax
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You forget the naked women. I'm serious on this point.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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OK, I'm serious too. You think being able to look at naked women all day is worth living in a country SUBSTANTIALLY lower than the US in terms of standard of living? And a country, for that matter, that is almost undoubtedly run by a king or dictator of some sort?
You decide. Naked women, or freedom and comfort (AND the ability to see naked women if you want to).
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Pax
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I think there is a lot wrong with the american system of government. I think that there needs to be some sort of safeguard person are group that's above politics. The system right now does not work for me.
I'm also considering trying to cut my own spending. I never inend to buy another car. When I get out of the navy my current goal is to use my bicycle for transportation. read more, write more, and exercise more. I currently live in historical ghent, Norfolk, Va so I don't have air conditioning. I generally don't go to the doctor and don't take medications. Last time I got sick I waited it out with my friends E&J. The only thing I really need technology for is to pick up women. they are the ones who are impressed with shiny things not me.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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quote:
I think there is a lot wrong with the american system of government. I think that there needs to be some sort of safeguard person are group that's above politics. The system right now does not work for me. |
OK, but what isn't clear is exactly what you think the problem is, or how a kingdom or dictatorship would be better.
quote:
I never inend to buy another car. When I get out of the navy my current goal is to use my bicycle for transportation. read more, write more, and exercise more. I currently live in historical ghent, Norfolk, Va so I don't have air conditioning. I generally don't go to the doctor and don't take medications. Last time I got sick I waited it out with my friends E&J. |
Well, I applaud you (actually I strongly question, but whatever  ) you're view towards technology. Do you at least acknowledge that your view is NOT in the majority, and that people who DO utilize technology to a greater degree than you likely be unwilling to give it up? And I'd also point out that you are using a personal computer (whether or not it's yours is irrelevant) to post on here.
Seriously, though, why don't you intend to buy a car? Is it money-related?
As for the doctor, I agree, but mainly because I just can't be arsed to go, I'd rather stay in bed 
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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quote:
Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are not considered 1st world nations. Yet their citizens on average are wealthier than americans. |
Yeah, and if you live in Saudi Arabia, I certainly hope you're not a woman. Or a non-Muslim. Or disagree with the government. And I hope you didn't live in Kuwait during the Iraqi invasion 
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With the right institutions in place it would be very properous for its citizens. |
Sure, the first thing it would require is liberty for the people who live there, and the elimination of corruption. It would also have required a ton of technology and infrastructure, and the resources to build both. Congo has very limited access to the sea, and a huge amount of jungle. Large rail and road networks would have been required, as well as major industrialization programs. The Congo also has very little arable land.
Sure, the Congo might have prospered - eventually. But absent colonialism, etc., I would bet that it would be in as bad or worse shape in THAT 2004 as it is in THIS 2004.
quote:
So to answer your question, it would not be on par with the U.S. on military or economic terms, but its citizens could be as well off or better than the average american, easily. |
Interesting that a communist is measuring "standard of living", etc., in terms of material wealth alone 
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Pax
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I currently have a 2003 vw, a 2001 ducati, and a 2004 specialized. i'm still making payments on the vw. i just want to live a life where i'm not stressed out about making or spending money. I came to the realization that most bad things that happen are really money or possession related. If i can simplify my life to the point that my reliance on money is diminshed then I feel my quality of life can go up considerably. I don't intend to go "native". If I could sit in the shade and read while naked women walked by, I would'nt be on this computer.
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
To me, the ideal is to get into a position where you can afford to buy what you need, and live comfortably beyond that. |
I believe that the Africans were doing this before the Europeans came.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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quote:
I believe that the Africans were doing this before the Europeans came. |
I was speaking financially. There are non-financial concerns. I can't speak to the exact financial state of pre-colonial Africans, although their definition of "need" and my definition of "need" probably differed greatly, with that difference due primarily to greater resources (to say nothing of greater technology, although we can even ignore that) on my part.
I bet, though, that I enjoy a great deal more individual liberty than they did, as one example. I am better able to travel at will, to practice religion freely, to speak against the government without fear of reprisals, to live without fear of being forced into a war - or for that matter, live in fear of invasion or slavery.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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quote:
Why should I care about that? It was in the past. |
The point, I think, is that there are non-financial concerns as well - one of them being lack of invasion threats.
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Just as interesting that a libertarian conveniently ignores the 'lack of choice' of millions of africans. |
I don't ignore that, I freely admit that slavery was wrong, and I don't condone started it up again. I can't do anything about the past, though, now can I?
quote:
btw, being communist means everyone gets to enjoy the trappings of a decent life, not we all must be dirt poor. |
I think my definition of "decent" would be far in excess of what a citizen of the Soviet Union, for example, would consider "decent" (and yes yes, I understand that the SU wasn't a true communist state, but I think the point stands).
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Pax
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David,
Money does run most peoples lives. People in the U.S. spend more time at work than they do at home, if you subtract the time spent sleeping. The need for more and more money is what caused slavery and the system after slavery that continued to subjugate the niggers, I mean blacks. I see capitalism as having a need to find new markets. I'm curious as to what's going to happen when there are no new markets(if that time ever comes). Communism on the other hand seems to be akin to equal profit-sharing in the theoretical model. Maybe after years of capitalism at the hands of the Colonials maybe the 3rd world needs some profit sharing to get back on track.
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Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:34
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"Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are not considered 1st world nations. Yet their citizens on average are wealthier than americans."
Saudi Arabia GNP per Capita PPP: $10,498
USA GNP per Capita PPP: 29,240
Anyway, for some in Africa the Slave Trade bettered them. For one, as with any depopulating event such as the black plauge, decreasing the population means fewer people to split the resources among; hence more for those still around. Moreover, some tribes which were not enslaved but instead captured other tribes and sold them off; those tribes gained a valubale export to trade. Other Africans were never enslaved at all. Even still, with a few expections Africa is still extremely poor. What's really at the problem isn't so much the slave trade but instead the failure to develop prior to colonization, European Imperialism and conquest of the continent, and failure to organize and develop in the post-colonial era.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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quote:
I see capitalism as having a need to find new markets. I'm curious as to what's going to happen when there are no new markets(if that time ever comes). |
The good news is, new inventions and new technology provide new markets, and capitalism drives innovation. For example, once PCs were invented, a market for PCs was created. Looked at from that perspective, the system is self sustaining 
quote:
Communism on the other hand seems to be akin to equal profit-sharing in the theoretical model. Maybe after years of capitalism at the hands of the Colonials maybe the 3rd world needs some profit sharing to get back on track. |
Well, which system do you think would be better? One that has been proven to create wealth and prosperity (capitalism), or one that has failed at every turn (communism)? And I also hasten to add that one of the only things worse than communism is a CORRUPT communism, and what's worse than that is an AUTHORITARIAN, corrupt, communist state. Sorta like the USSR, for example. Unfortunately, most nations in Africa are both corrupt and authoritarian in nature. I wouldn't suggest adding communism to that mix.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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quote:
What's really at the problem isn't so much the slave trade but instead the failure to develop prior to colonization, European Imperialism and conquest of the continent, and failure to organize and develop in the post-colonial era. |
Put another way, do you think colonialism/imperialism would have been so easy, had Africa bothered to develop on its own in the centuries prior to that time?
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Anyway, for some in Africa the Slave Trade bettered them. For one, as with any depopulating event such as the black plauge, decreasing the population means fewer people to split the resources among; hence more for those still around. Moreover, some tribes which were not enslaved but instead captured other tribes and sold them off; those tribes gained a valubale export to trade. Other Africans were never enslaved at all. Even still, with a few expections Africa is still extremely poor. What's really at the problem isn't so much the slave trade but instead the failure to develop prior to colonization, European Imperialism and conquest of the continent, and failure to organize and develop in the post-colonial era. |
Had the Africans simply lost population and retained control of their resources then it could be compared to the black plague. The Africans did not fail develop after being colonized. The Colonizers were in charge at that point. After WW2, the World powers gave the 3rd world countries there freedom but did not leave them in a state of pristine condition. It would be as if someone borrowed your car and returned it with a cracked head. Would they be surprised to find you've got your car in the backyard sitting on blocks.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax Africanus
I believe that the Africans were doing this before the Europeans came. |
Indeed- African mariners could confidently sail away from sight of land in the Indian ocean before Europeans were routinely doing the same in the North Atlantic. They traded with China, with India and Central Asia- a descendant of African slaves went on to forge a kingdom in mediaeval times on the Indian sub-continent, and black slaves revolted in the Middle East, holding their own in what is now southern Iraq and Western Iran against the forces of the Caliphate, in what became known as the revolt of the Zanj.
In the days of Herodotus, the Greeks believed that Egypt was the gateway to spiritual wisdom, because the names of the gods came to Greece from Egypt; and yet, the source for this knowledge was rooted deeper in Africa. The interior of the continent was said to be populated by:
‘the long-lived black peoples, who are said to be the tallest and best looking people of the world.’
In Homer’s Iliad, the Greek pantheon is said to visit the Aethiops every year, for a banquet of all the gods:
“For Zeus had yesterday to Ocean’s bounds
Set forth to feast with Aethiop’s faultless men,
And he was followed there by all the gods.”
The Greeks considered that wisdom came out of black Africa, and examples in the applied arts such as the two headed Greek vase known as the kantheros (several depicting one half as a black African, the other as a white European) reflect a belief in the basic equality of black and white- they are seen as different but equal.
Later in 50 B.C., Diodorus the Greek historian from Sicily could say:
“[the black peoples] ...were the first of all men and the proofs of this statement, historians agree, are clear to see.’
It took the intellectual and philosophical equivalents of a sleep and a forgetting, for later Europeans to assign examples of African culture and ingenuity as far apart and diverse as Ife terracottas and Zimbabwean buildings, to lost Greek colonies, Phoenicians, the Queen of Sheba, or lost Atlanteans.
How the ancient Greeks would have laughed.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
That question depends primarily one where you're standing. Africa still has not recovered from the slave trade or the colonial period. The neo-colonial period isn't looking so great either. Almost anyway you measure it, European imperialism was an unmitigated attrocity. Using your logic one might make the argument that the Holocaust was good for the Jews because the survivors got Israel because of it.
The decendents of the native Americans are certainly much worse off as a result of European imperialism. The ones that remain are disposessed in their own lands, stripped of their culture, even in countries where they form the majority of the populations, such as Guatemala, Peru, and Bolivia.
India and parts of East Asia are recovering only now.
The global positive effects of European imperialism have yet to materialize. |
So the increases in population, lifespan, wealth, knowledge, opportunity and the increases in freedom from clan and private warfare, disease, access to international markets, vast improvements in transportation and communication etc. all would have occurred in such a widespread fashion as rapidly without colonialism? Like it or not, warfare and its cultural equivalents and products are the main means and / or the impetus to change throughout history.
I'm certainly not arguing that colonialism didn't kill and destroy, or was carried out solely or pervasively for the benefit of the indigenous peoples who were its subjects. But I don't doubt that there are many more people living much better and longer lives in many more places on this planet in large part because of colonialism.
Those who suffered most from colonialism were those who were least capable of adapting to the crash course in modernity being forced upon them by competition with both the colonizers themselves and their more adaptable or otherwise better situated neighbors. In large part these peoples were those who were the most primitive, such as the North American Indians who lived in what became the United States and Canada, only some of whom were practicing rudimentary agriculture.
People such as the Bushmen in Africa have been losing ground steadily for millenia, first solely to fellow subsaharan Africans who had learned how to grow crops and work metals, and then in successive waves as Arabs and then Europeans increased both the relative power differential between their neighbors and themselves through trade and eventually in some cases through waves of displacement.
This is the way of the world, and my forebearers took part in both sides of the struggle as native Americans, Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Franks and god knows how many unknown and unknowable peoples before them. I take no particular pride in any of this, or shame either. I can only point to my own mediocre contributions to humanity through my own actions in this life, and humbly hope that somehow they add up to some sort of net benefit for the species. The material and intellectual legacy I have inherited is a daunting challenge in this respect.
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BeBro
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of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
So the increases in population, lifespan, wealth, knowledge, opportunity and the increases in freedom from clan and private warfare, disease, access to international markets, vast improvements in transportation and communication etc. all would have occurred in such a widespread fashion as rapidly without colonialism? Like it or not, warfare and its cultural equivalents and products are the main means and / or the impetus to change throughout history.
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I think it is difficult to say colonialism as a whole was good for the development in the colonized territories. On the one hand you have India, China, and a lot smaller Asian states which seem to do very well now, however - but were is the big increase of lifespan, wealth, knowledge, opportunity and freedom in Africa?
Even when we conclude that the colonial powers built up effective bureaucratic structures in their African colonies too, that they improved infrastructure, maybe also education, that they established (or tried to do so) - at least in certain aspects - a rule of law, even sometimes granted modern rights to the colonized people we can on the other hand not ignore that all this was done for the main purpose to ensure the primary function of the colonies - which was to serve their motherlands economically. I don't dispute that perhaps many in the west thought they'd do a good and right job in "civilizing" the "uncivilized", but that does not change the real economic role colonies had to play, and in praxis this turned often out as blatant racism.
And of course, all this was also done by (willingly or not) destroying older African societal structures. So when you destroy established structures and enforce "western" ideas in every field a relation between these facts, and the fact that all those nice western achievements quickly faded away and were replaced by corruption, dictatorship, and endless wars between differents fractions, or clans in many ex-colonies after the decolonialization seems quite probable. For Africa I don't see big positive consequences of colonialism.
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10-03-2004 08:57
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