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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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Theben,
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No, you don't get it. The pilgrimage from Mali to Mecca under the reign of Mansa Musa wound up fianancing the Renaissance. Think about how that would've changed history. |
OK, but the reign of Mansa Musa was during the 14th Century, which was much earlier than the bulk of the slave trade - at least, the European slave trade. Arabs and Africans were trading slaves around at that point amongst each other.
Although, this brings up an interesting side point. You know what happened to the kingdom of Mali? Well, after Mansa Musa made his wealth (and kingdom) known, Mali began appearing on maps in the Middle East and Europe. By the 16th Century, Mali was known as Songhai, a kingdom that was ultimately destroyed when the more modern Moroccan army invaded.
Point is, your example of a wealthy African kingdom - which I grant you, certainly existed - was wiped out by fighting with other African nations, and the trade routes that had brought the region prosperity were wiped out as well. You can't really blame Europeans for that one 
quote:
I AM saying that if colonialism hadn't occurred, or had taken on a different method not involving mass enslavement as historically happened:
1) Africa WOULD be in better shape than it is today.
2) There would not be mass resentment toward whites by blacks in America, for one there wouldn't be as many, and two they wouldn't be descendants of slaves, Jim Crow, and current 2nd class citizens. |
Undoubtedly so. I don't deny either point for a single second. I also don't deny that slavery was morally wrong. My issue is with people who feel that, without slavery, they would be better off living in Africa. Regardless of how prosperous Africa might or might not have become, it is hard for me to envision ANY African nation rising to the level of the United States, or, for that matter, any other current First World country.
That doesn't make slavery OK, it just means that whites don't owe blacks anything, and it means that blacks really have no justification for hating whites because of slavery.
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by dainbramage20
Pax. By No means am I racist or such. And By no Means do I intentionally intend to come off that way. I love all races and break bread with all of them. I simply dislike attitudes and attire and I dislike the popular culture embraced by african americans (and some others) influencing todays attitudes and dress in this area as it teach kids that there is no hope in this world and your only goal in life is to get rich or die tryin. No ambition to be something productive like a docter, None to be a lawyer, Not even a mechanic. Ive trained hundreds of African Americans at work. I can say without a doubt 98% of them dont stay. They have there priorities wrong. Some came in late smelling of marijuana, others just dont call. And yet others will lie right to your face despite the blame for a problem being solely in there hands.
Alot of African-Americans need help NOW. Not
tommorrow, not 2010, NOW. You need to catch up. You are in danger of being further marginalized politically and economically, not worth pandering too cause 60% dont even vote (gallup poll from 2000). Whatever idea's from the Left or Right I would like to hear them.
Of course back on topic. I dont use that word. Its disrespectful tho I hear african americans use that word alot. It doesnt bother me too much. As its an in-culture thing I guess. I wont get it cause im not inside the culture. Im so Damn white If I step outside in the sun for a tan, I get whiter. |
Where do you work?
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Pax
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Originally posted by paiktis22
Could we please not generalize? Europe did that Europe did the other. Specific countries did specific things. Not "Europe" Doesn't mean anything. Thanks. |
In the case of this argument Europe would be France, Spain, Portugal, Holland, England, Canada, U.S., Australia, New Zealand, Italy, Russia and Germany. Any country with mainly European ancestry that had a hand in the subjugation of a people.
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
Why? Planning terrorist activities? |
I want to get an idea of who he's talking about before I make a comment on his statement.
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by MrBaggins
No... just another example of where Africa has been better run by foreigners than the natives... along with the obvious example of S.A., of course.
I can't think of any sub-saharan country where black leadership has made an outstanding contribution, in fact. |
Refer to my statement about China Achebe. S.A. has IMO opinion South Africa has not been better off when run by whites read Cry thy beloved country or master harold and the boys
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by The Viceroy
From an Indian perspective, colour of skin is a very interesting thing. Being fair, is being god like .. Parents will do almost anything to ensure there children are fair, and many of the older generations still maintain that white people are there betters ..
Indians most certainly are race concious, especially towards africans .. if you think an S.Asian family would react badly to their daughter having a white boyfriend, i can promise you, if that boyfriend was black .. It would probably result in the girl being disowned...
For an indian parent, the issue is not one of culture, not one of cast or creed (although that can be an issue in villages), but simlpy one of imagining what colour the grand children will be, and what the neighbours would say. For outsiders that may seem quite alien, and quite wrong, but in such a close knit society, where your entire life can be governed by the colour of your skin, it is no surprise that parents wish there children to find a fair partner .. much like Victorian British parents insisted on marrying people of similar or better class. |
In African American and from what I've Afro-French communities also have the same bias in favor of lighter skin. Especiallly among women where it's customary for them to straighten their hair. Darker skinned people are ridiculed with comments like tar baby and black jesus. Those are the insults in black communities not nigger.
That connects the topic nicely.
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Pax
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You guys were busy while I was sleeping.
dainbramage20,
I don't have a clue as to where you work or what type of people apply for jobs there. I also can't and won't classify all african americans being the type you just described. I'm not like that. Although a lot of people I know are. White or black.
The things you mentioned in your articles are problems in african american subculture and in American culture. Louis Farrakhan, NOI leader has pointed a lot of these problems out among blacks. His point is that African Americans should stop waiting for the government to uplift them and do it themsleves. Stop waiting for money to be handed out and go start a business or a get a job. I agree with this. It sounds like you might also.
I don't know exactly why the each person you hire acts that way. Here's my belief. A lot, not all african americans live in a situation without hope or expectation of a better life. Kids at a young age need to have desire and possibility instilled in them. From this they can dream and work for a better life. A lot of these kids feel like there is no way they will ever be able to be successful so they never try. That's an incrimination on the Parents, The public school system as well as American Soicety as a whole. These kids don't need handouts they need hope and guidance. It's not being given to them. You can blame the parents but they never knew hope either. My first wife is like that. I pray that she does not infect my sons with her hopelessness.
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Undoubtedly so. I don't deny either point for a single second. I also don't deny that slavery was morally wrong. My issue is with people who feel that, without slavery, they would be better off living in Africa. Regardless of how prosperous Africa might or might not have become, it is hard for me to envision ANY African nation rising to the level of the United States, or, for that matter, any other current First World country.
That doesn't make slavery OK, it just means that whites don't owe blacks anything, and it means that blacks really have no justification for hating whites because of slavery. |
I should have never said anything about hate. Hating whites won't solve anything anyway. That's pointless, whether it's right or wrong." If you car was stolen it does no good to hate the thief. The thing to discuss is what to do after your car has been stolen.
I've already explained an actual fact. If you look in the dictionary you can see that words can have multiple meanings. Also, the meanings of words can change. The word nigger currently has 2 meanings. With the assimiliation of the african american more and more into mainstream society this meaning of the word nigger is still changing. In the future it probably won't have any meaning at all.
David,
I promise you I would much rather africans were never enslaved. I don't care if that would mean no air conditioning or whatever niceties I might had to give up. I already said and quite truthfully that the ability to look at naked women all day has a great appeal to me. I mean it. The ability to know my own history has a great appeal to me. I love history. I know so much about the greeks and romans. Yet next to nothing about my own history.
It's quite possible that the Europeans could have introduced technologies into these native cultures and not conquered or enslaved them. I admit that it's better for the Europeans to conquer and enslave them.
As far as Colonial rule goes I already explained that when the colonizers never really left. The resources in these countries are still controlled from Europe. The entire continent has been mentally and physically scarred from European dominance. I compare it to rape. You cna't expect these countries to just work. It's going to take a lot of work to get these countries on their feet.
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
Pax; Farrakhan was awesome, but what do the black ppl have today? Jessie Jackson? Give me a break. You no longer need to hide behind this guise that you are black, we know that and accept that, so get over it. IMO it is the black people that keep reminding every one that they are black, without need. Black Pride is a waste of time.
Viceroy is Indian? That is not a minority as far as I am concerned. |
Farrkhan's not dead. I'm not hiding behind any guise. I heard him say that when I was 17. I'm 33 now. I have taken his advice to heart. Although, I'm not where i want to be in life, I'm a long way from where I was. I know what people in the projects think and are like. I lived there. I was one of them. I'm saying that they are not like that because they are black but because of the situation. Change the situation, You have an entirely different person.
I'm also stating that studies have shown a disposition for African Americans in particular to have a cultural identity crisis. it's true. If you have time check out the movie school daze. It's one of the few movies to deal with the light skin dark skin color issue among african americans. Ask some of your black friends. Ask a social studies major.
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:34
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As it applies to the N-word:
I use the word "dude" all the time, like a true Californian. Dude has it roots in the wild west. When people began to aspire to be cowboys they would "vacation" as ranch hands, it were considered fake cowboys, i.e. dudes. Thus, dude mean "faker"... I don't use it in that way, but that is what it means. I would never defend the fact that it is a deragatory term, and that me using it earns no respect. Yet, amongst friends it is find, and I would never have a problem with someone else calling me that, because that is the way I am.
The problem with the N-word is that it holds the same history, yet you and all the other black people will claim that has "connotation" to it. Yes, there is, and it is to desensitize the word. However, the fact that if a whitey WASP such as myself were to use I would get my arse kicked by any black person that I say it too. That in amongst itself tells me that it is black ppl that are not being desensitized to the word. Rather they use the word in the connoation they set it in to set themselves apart and further lable themselves as "the others" or outsiders...
Do you understand?
It is not that I would ever use that word, or that I think that one black person calling another person the N-word is flamatory, it is that the connotation carries with it more than just "brotherhood" but it carries with it the same juvinile attitude that encourages racism, regardless of race.
It is like me calling myself a dude, and my friends calling me a dude, but the minute someone i don't know calls me I dude a get all offensive...
I feel that it comes down to Black Pride, or really pride in general. You should be proud of who you are (a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, etc...) not what you are ( a male, a female, christian, jew, black, white, orange, purple, etc.)....
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Pax
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We could just eliminate all the white people then the word would only have one meaning. Just kidding.
You're not listening. As we speak the word is changing in meaning. Black and white kids are calling each other nigger. It's not acceptable in my generation. Just like interracial dating and marriage is becoming more and more acceptable. In the future the words meaing will only have one meaing just like blacks will be assimilated into mainstream culture. So just relax.
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:34
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Farrkhan's not dead. |
I am aware
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I'm not hiding behind any guise. I heard him say that when I was 17. I'm 33 now. I have taken his advice to heart. |
good.
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Although, I'm not where i want to be in life, I'm a long way from where I was. I know what people in the projects think and are like. I lived there. I was one of them. I'm saying that they are not like that because they are black but because of the situation. Change the situation, You have an entirely different person. |
You are a lot like me, I believe.
I have a theory, or more of a life guiding principle, in that "you become the company you keep." You hang with losers - you become a loser. You hang with racists - you become a racist... etc... And I did hang with racists for a long time. I have changed a lot over the past 10 years, as it appears you have (hung with racist, and changed).
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I'm also stating that studies have shown a disposition for African Americans in particular to have a cultural identity crisis. it's true. |
If there is a dispostiotion against black people then wouldn't the study also be skewed? Just kidding I know that this dispostion exists, I see it, I'm not blind. Yet, this comes back to my theory. There are people everywhere that will have a problem with you for one reason or another. I have been asked to leave from restaurants in Santa Clara (just down the street) because I wasn't Korean!!!
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If you have time check out the movie school daze. It's one of the few movies to deal with the light skin dark skin color issue among african americans. Ask some of your black friends. Ask a social studies major. |
I am not speaking out of ignorance. Though I have not seen School Daze (but will now) I have talked about this issue with many of my friends; most of who are minorities.
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Theben
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Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
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I keep getting sidetracked answering point by point, so let me try to sum up what I've been meaning to say since page 3.
The issue of slavery and how it still affects modern america:
We all are aware that blacks in this country have been 2nd class citizens for awhile, but they weren't the only ones. Irish, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, hispanics, etc. were targets of hatred in the past. So what makes blacks so special?
In the case of European immigrants, they became 'assimilated' into mainstream america after WWI. The Japanese mainly suffered during WWII, but have been accepted and are on the verge of 'assimilation' into 'white' american culture, given the similarities of western values. Hispanics are for the most part still 2nd class citizens but there has been in the last decade or so a growing tolerance towards them, as well as media recognition. The latter presumably due to population growth of hispanics.
OTOH blacks (and native americans, but that's another thread) are the only group that have been segregated thruout the entire history of the U.S. They were our primary source of slaves, they had special laws passed to keep them in 2nd class status after slavery, they've had hate groups formed to harass and kill them specifically (the KKK in it's heyday had 22 million members). That's enough to develop a siege mentality IMO, but it's not all. The mentality of the average white person did not equate blacks as socially equal for a long time, which allows for intolerance to be acceptable. Lynchings were a time for festivities, inviting the family out to a social gathering under the bodies of blacks hung from trees. Blacks were not allowed in certain neighborhoods, had shopkeepers refuse to sell to them, have been economically disenfranchised, and threatened with violence if they stood up for their rights. It was not even until 1991 that a majority of americans approved of interracial marriages. And if you ask any african american over the age of 20, I'll bet over 99% of them will have had at least one tale in their past which they were threatened in some manner solely b/c of their skin color by a white person or persons. Thus we have deprivation of economic, social, and political freedoms, as well as a right to life & liberty, that is institutional & social, and continual. The only other ethnic group in the U.S. that can make this claim are the natives, and in their case the social oppression is considerably lesser (although I'd argue that institutional is greater).
All of this traces its history back to slavery in the U.S. The original institution of slavery has resulted in the actual powerlessness of blacks in the beginning, and their weakened status which continues to this day. I should also mention that during and after the slave trade, whites were the ones who held the reins of power, which is obvious but needs pointing out.
Whites are used to having 'power'. Blacks are used to being 'powerless'. 'Power' in this case refers to enjoying the basic freedoms that whites take for granted in this country- aka white privilege. The reason I wanted people to ask themselves when they became aware that race was an issue was b/c on average whites do not become aware until they are in their teens, while blacks on average become aware around the age of 4 or 5. Generally, it is not a pleasant experience. When taken in focus with the history of blacks mentioned above, it becomes clear to blacks that the institutions and social oppression started by slavery still plays a very important role in their lives. I say clear to blacks b/c it is NOT clear to whites: we do not grow up with similar experiences or lack of power, and thus often have a difficult time understanding why the feel the way they do. Slavery was so long ago, why are they still harping about it? Just get over it!
One thing that always occurs when a person or a group who has been denied power and suddenly receives it, is that they will hold onto that power tenaciously. If it is taken away, or perceived to be, there is usually a violent reaction. This has happened in peasant uprisings in Europe & Japan, in farmers rebellions in the U.S., and in American inner cities (uprisings by blacks following the failures of Johnson's Great Society) as well as in southern U.S. states (perceived loss of power by whites due to MLKs nonviolent marches).
Which brings me to the original question: why do blacks call other nigger? As pointed out several times by others, it is utilized historically by oppressed groups to devalue the negative connotations and to emphasize group awareness. It adds POWER to a group used to not having power. And when someone comes along who is associated with an oppressor says you can't do that anymore, the loss of power triggers a violent response. As evidenced in this thread earlier.
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
I'm just trying to make the point that hating people because of slavery is completely ridiculous. No one alive had anything to do with slavery, and the fact that millions of slaves were imported into America means that today there are millions of people who have opportunities in America they never would have had in Africa. This, I think, is the main point, or at least my main point.
...
I think that they shouldn't hate white people because of slavery, in part because, let's face it, they are better off in America today than they would be in any African country, even without the slave trade.
...
My issue is with people who feel that, without slavery, they would be better off living in Africa. Regardless of how prosperous Africa might or might not have become, it is hard for me to envision ANY African nation rising to the level of the United States, or, for that matter, any other current First World country.
That doesn't make slavery OK, it just means that whites don't owe blacks anything, and it means that blacks really have no justification for hating whites because of slavery. |
I hope the above answers most of your questions, Dave. wrt whites owning blacks, no one really owes anyone for anything. Blacks as individuals and as a community are gonna have to make it on their own, cuz no one will do it for them. Whites just need to perceive and help dismantle the remainders of slavery, and lead, follow, or get the hell outta the way of black achievement.
p.s. I think our point of contention stems from your libertarian values. If I'm right, you think that no matter how bad slavery was, as long as a percentage of blacks can be successful, then it was worthwhile?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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If I'm right, you think that no matter how bad slavery was, as long as a percentage of blacks can be successful, then it was worthwhile? |
How many ****ing times do I have to answer this question? No, I DON'T THINK that slavery was good, worthwhile, or anything else. I think it was MORALLY WRONG. My point, which so many people seem INCAPABLE OF GRASPING, is simply that if NOT FOR SLAVERY, there are quite a few blacks in the US today who would be living in substandard conditions in a shithole country in Africa, so when people ***** about reparations, or about oppression in the past, or about why it's OK to mistrust or hate white people, I get upset.
Jesus Christ! My libertarian values? What the hell part of Libertarianism do you think says that slavery is OK?
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Theben
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Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Uhh- it certainly adversely affected the economy in Egypt, |
Yes, I am aware of that.
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but saying that his pilgrimage financed the European Renaissance is a gross oversimplification, and ignores European trade from Northern-Southern Europe, and with Asia and the Levant.
The roots of Italian prosperity lay more in the long conflict between Papacy and Empire which had caused Italy to divide into self-governing republican oligarchical city states, or similarly structured dukedoms, which all vied with each other to show their cultural prowess and financing of the new learning.
Venice's wealth for instance, lay more in privileged trade routes with the Far East through Constantinople, and the discovery of double entry bookkeeping gave Italian banking houses and financiers an advantage over competitors. |
I shouldn't have said it financed the renaissance, since that sounds like it was the sole means of wealth. But it did play an important role, which has some bearing on this thread.
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Theben
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Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
How many ****ing times do I have to answer this question? No, I DON'T THINK that slavery was good, worthwhile, or anything else. I think it was MORALLY WRONG. My point, which so many people seem INCAPABLE OF GRASPING, is simply that if NOT FOR SLAVERY, there are quite a few blacks in the US today who would be living in substandard conditions in a shithole country in Africa, so when people ***** about reparations, or about oppression in the past, or about why it's OK to mistrust or hate white people, I get upset.
Jesus Christ! My libertarian values? What the hell part of Libertarianism do you think says that slavery is OK? |
I already acknowledged that you believe slavery to be morally wrong; let me rephrase it:
If I'm right, as long as a percentage of blacks can be successful, then we can say something good came out of something awful?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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Well, do you deny that living in the US as opposed to Africa is a positive thing?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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Put another way, anything can have a positive side, and it is more constructive to dwell on positives, rather than negatives. Don't you agree?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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quote:
Furthermore the conditions for many african-americans are pretty dismal. They wouldn't get MTV but they might have preferred living in africa. I would have to ask them. |
If you could find even 1 out of 10 blacks today who would prefer living in Africa to living in America, I'd be shocked.
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Finally, w/o the slave trade africa may have been, likely would have been a much nicer place to live. I can't see it equalling the U.S. in economic power & wealth, but I'm sure many would have loved it. |
Yeah, and to go back to the Brazil example, that might be a beautiful country and a nice place for some people, but it is nowhere near the US. Surely you don't posit that an African nation, absent slavery, would be on par with the First World?
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I cannot mentally disassociate the negatives of the slave trade with any positives. The losses far outstrip the gains. On the whole it is not positive. |
*shrug* It certainly is for blacks alive today, in that they get to live in the US. I can't do anything about the past, and about Africans getting no choice about slavery. I can just point at the present, and say that no matter how bad conditions may be in the US, it sure as hell beats the alternative.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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quote:
Yes, but sometimes the negatives must be fully acknowledged 1st. America hasn't done that yet. |
The US certainly has acknowledged that slavery was wrong.
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10-03-2004 05:17
To Theben
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