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Theben
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Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
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quote:
Should I then dislike the Dutch, French, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Scandinavian, etc...because at some point in history they invaded (most of them on more then one occasion) my country |
Different context. It's not africans in Africa that are upset. It's africans in America. Remember they had no homeland, no history.
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Hating entire people for what others did decades or even longer ago is nonsense. It may be emotionally understandable, but it helps noone. If Europeans acted that way, they would still be at war with eachother. |
Yugoslavia, anyone?
Bear in mind that if the dressings of slavery still didn't exist, this would be a non-issue. As it is the legacy of slavery in the U.S. was still institutionalized less than 10 years ago, and racial tensions exist to this day. Memories don't fade that quickly.
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BeBro
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of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:34
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Originally posted by Theben
Yugoslavia, anyone?
Bear in mind that if the dressings of slavery still didn't exist, this would be a non-issue. As it is the legacy of slavery in the U.S. was still institutionalized less than 10 years ago, and racial tensions exist to this day. Memories don't fade that quickly.
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Yeah, but this is a special case, because the differences and conflicts between the people on the Balkan were "controlled" by Tito, and during that time there was never a real chance to settle these differences in the region.
While I agree that "Memories don't fade that quickly", People in Yugoslavia hadn't the chance to let them fade (to say it in your words), because the concrete political circumstances were not helpful in really removing them, just the opposite, the rising nationalism during the 90ies reinforced those differences.
But this is not characteristic for the rest of Europe. It is quite amazing when you read how the political elites after WWII in many big European countries ware aware of the fact that the way to improve things would be not to reopen old gaps again. As much as one could criticise aspects of the European integration this kind of thinking is certainly one of the most successful elements in the still ongoing process.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
No. I made no assumption how it would have developed because I think it is a waste of time to prove any long-term development that did obviously not happen. What you call "a safe bet" remains pure speculation. You cannot know what societal structures Africans had developed when the continent had been untouched by colonialization. |
Sure I can. Dr Livingstone I presume?
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Just because you see no signs that they developed similar structures like Europe before the colonization of Africa proves nothing about the possibility of later developments. |
Of course it does. If they hadn't yet reached point A for thousands of years before europeans came, it's hardly likely that they would suddenly reach point F on their own.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Theben
1) Africa WOULD be in better shape than it is today.
What would have happened is pure speculation. What DID happen we know. Why is this so hard for you? |
If what would have happened is pure speculation, why do you feel you are the only one with the right to speculate?
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Theben
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Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Of course it does. If they hadn't yet reached point A for thousands of years before europeans came, it's hardly likely that they would suddenly reach point F on their own. |
Ah, yes, b/c europeans created everything that was ever worthwhile in a geopolitical vacuum.  They never engaged in trade with byzantines, arabs, chinese, or africans (in the early days when there were powerful african empires).
One might suppose that Scandinavians would never have developed these institutions either, since they had to encounter franks, teutons, angles, saxons, bulgars, and slavs and copy their methods 1st.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
More speculation. German tribes weren't on a high societal level, and there weren't colonized by the Romans (except some areas and only temporarily, never completely), just in cultural contact, still they managed to develop further, and even to survive longer than the Roman empire..... |
Obviously this is more speculation. That's what we are both doing. That was the intent of my original "it would be a pretty safe bet" comment. I speculated that a safe bet would be that things would stay the same. All you've done is dismiss it because it's speculation while hinting that you think things would have been different. So when I speculate it's wrong to speculate - when you speculate it's ok.
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MrBaggins
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What about Zimbabwe, then?
The black majority kick the white farmers out, and their country is going to hell in a hand basket. They'll be starving soon enough.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Theben
Ah, yes, b/c europeans created everything that was ever worthwhile in a geopolitical vacuum. |
I never said any such thing.
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They never engaged in trade with byzantines, arabs, chinese, or africans (in the early days when there were powerful african empires).
One might suppose that Scandinavians would never have developed these institutions either, since they had to encounter franks, teutons, angles, saxons, bulgars, and slavs and copy their methods 1st. |
This is the whole point. Without contact with others, sub-saharan africa likely would have languished as it had for eons before.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Theben
err, no, that's historical fact. |
You misunderstood my post to BreBro. I was agreeing with him that we were speculating.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Theben
Sans loss of 100,000,000 people, multiple wars of genocide, colonialism, and add peaceful trade? Don't get me wrong, I suppose they might have gotten nuked or something at a later date. But when bad things don't occur, one can safely assume that the recepient is better off. |
Your view of history is so obviously one-sided. You act as though NOTHING good came of european colonization.
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Caligastia
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Sorry folks, gotta go. I'll get abck to this later.
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09-03-2004 20:41
Quit being a willful idiot.
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