09-03-2004 06:56									#61
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I'm not going to argue slave trade responsibility with Theban, or anyone for that matter, as I don't see what it has to do with the use of the N-word being used....

	09-03-2004 06:57									#62
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd By the way: WARNING: JOINT PWNING IN PROGRESS. ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK.

Unfortunately, you and your buddies don't realize that you're the ones being pwned. It's actually pretty sad.

	09-03-2004 06:58									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Theben But since NONE of you actually read my post I'll say it again: the level of trade would not have been as large. I'm NOT saying that blacks are blameless, I'm saying that white's bear MORE, not ALL, of the responsibility. And seeing as America was responsible for every black slave that came to the U.S., and seeing as we're talking about an issue of race in America, the point is valid.

Blacks in Africa were selling their slaves, so the fact that whites provided a new market for them wouldn't have made as much of a difference as you are trying to make out.

	09-03-2004 07:00									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I'm not going to argue slave trade responsibility with Theban, or anyone for that matter, as I don't see what it has to do with the use of the N-word being used....

I was going to attempt to get away from it, as it's not the main issue, but it kept coming up. It IS related, though, and if you don't see a connection that's probably why you don't understand where Pax is coming from.

	09-03-2004 07:01									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Nope.

I would disagree with you on this point. Polynesians have been conquered, large scale migrations of many different peoples into their culture throughout their history. Hawaii is one of the biggest melting pots in all of the world. Europeans, Asians, Latin, black...etc.

	09-03-2004 07:02									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Blacks in Africa were selling their slaves, so the fact that whites provided a new market for them wouldn't have made as much of a difference as you are trying to make out.

own goal

	09-03-2004 07:03									#67
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I agree with Theben. The question for me is why do so many white people get mad when black people call each other nigger. It's as if they are mad because they don't get to.

	09-03-2004 07:04									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner I would disagree with you on this point. Polynesians have been conquered, large scale migrations of many different peoples into their culture throughout their history. Hawaii is one of the biggest melting pots in all of the world. Europeans, Asians, Latin, black...etc.

Being conquered by another race is a bit different to willingly accepting them.

	09-03-2004 07:04									#69
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The blacks who profited from the slave trade were in Africa. I'm in America. I don't know if they knew or cared what was going to happen to my family.

From my understanding the blacks in africa in general do not consider black americans to really be african. You see my history starts in Georgia. My name does not give a clue to my origins. I might as well be Pax Africanus or Kevin Williams. Where am I from. A person who is 3/4 dutch is lucky in that he knows that. What am I Bantu, Maori. I can't say. Why should I learn Bantu, Swahili, or any of the many other dialects. My history starts in Georgia with collard greens and chitlins. I've never tasted a Kola nut. I grew up with a few words like Nigger that define all that I am or where my family comes from. To me the word nigger is a triumph in itself. The slaves took a word meant to demean them and turned into a word to symbolize family where family was stolen from them. If you lost your culture then you lost it, my family's culture was stolen.

The common use of the word Brother, Brotha came about much later than nigger. Probably came form the Nation of Islam attempt to unify blacks other a cause. I don't know for sure.

The black experience is not the same as the Chinese or any other. Blacks and chinese did not start out from the same point and although both groups are the other in maerican society. It does not mean that they are looked at exactly the same or given the same opportunities. They are not.

As a black man I don't seem the problem with blacks in gangs, the projects, or on welfare as being caused by the use of the word Nigger. Please. I had to put that there. The problems and solutions can be for another discussion.

My Dad, who uses the word is a very religous man he does not have a gangsta attitude. Neither do the Black Naval Officers I hear who use the word(male and female), or even the Black School teachers that also use the word. You can't define the problem that blacks have in america by use of a word. there are real reasons and real solutions out there.

	09-03-2004 07:05									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Theben own goal

Sorry, I should have added "to each other anyway".

	09-03-2004 07:08									#71
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Theben,

quote: Unfortunately, you and your buddies don't realize that you're the ones being pwned. It's actually pretty sad.

The only sad thing is that you haven't yet responded to one of my points.

Pax,

quote: From my understanding the blacks in africa in general do not consider black americans to really be african.

Which brings up the side issue of why many blacks seem to prefer to be called "African American" (although we can't call white Africans by that term, apparently)...

quote: The blacks who profited from the slave trade were in Africa. I'm in America. I don't know if they knew or cared what was going to happen to my family.

The relevant point is that no one alive today has been negatively impacted by the slave trade - at least, no one alive in America - so no one is justified in hating anyone else because of slavery.

	09-03-2004 07:10									#72
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Sorry, I'm confused. Are you being a smartass, or is that an actual argument?

I'm being a smart ass, although Kipling really did say it. I used to be a big fan until I learned more of his opinions.

	09-03-2004 07:11									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Being conquered by another race is a bit different to willingly accepting them.

True, but I also mentioned "mass migrations" especially from Asia.

Also, once the invaders "conquered" the Polynesian Kingdom, whether it was another pacific tribe, the English, etc. those invaders have been accepted by the community and absorbed into the Polynesian culture.

The Polynesians are a wonderful people.

	09-03-2004 07:12									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Care to elaborate PLATO?

Sure. The continual recognition of race and the stereotypes that are associated with them are counterproductive to achieving a homogenous society. Cultural differences can be celebrated without defining race (i.e. California culture or Muslim culture).

A linguistics professor I had years ago gave me an excellent explaination. This word is used by black people in order to devalue the power that it once had over them. It apparently is a fairly common way that peoples have done this historically. In using a self derogotory word in a socially uplifting way then one gains control of it.

The real point is that Blacks still feel the social need to depower this word. When men are judged by different means than color then this word will vanish, as it should.

Without pointing out specific examples there have been several posts that have called into light differences that are based soley on color. I had simply thought our community better than that.

	09-03-2004 07:12									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia It's mostly whites that are offended by the use of that word nowadays.

it's quite unnerving to be CALLED a nigger by a black person when you're white, as it creates quite an interesting situation. he then called us "honkies" and "loud ass crackers", so me and my roomates have gotten away calling him some insults too. we started off with coon, and then my other friend tried jiggaboo. then my OTHER friend (who has more balls than brains) pulled out "nigga" with no R, and he didn't flip out.

we wouldn't dare call him anything whist he was with his "running crew" as he calls them.

	09-03-2004 07:12									#76
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quote: The slaves took a word meant to demean them and turned into a word to symbolize family where family was stolen from them. If you lost your culture then you lost it, my family's culture was stolen.

See the second post in this thread, and the rebutt...

quote: Probably came form the Nation of Islam attempt to unify blacks other a cause. I don't know for sure.

I have the same assumption... if true, then why hold up a word given by slave traders instead of one given by a great leader; Malcom X?

quote: You can't define the problem that blacks have in america by use of a word. there are real reasons and real solutions out there.

The word is not the reason from which I draw my conclusions. My conclusions lead to the word being used.

quote: was going to attempt to get away from it, as it's not the main issue, but it kept coming up. It IS related, though, and if you don't see a connection that's probably why you don't understand where Pax is coming from.

I concur. I do understand it's relation and I don't understand where Pax is coming from. I probably never will... The difference needs to be recognized, but then that would be racist... Catch 22 in effect!

	09-03-2004 07:16									#77
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quote: The continual recognition of race and the stereotypes that are associated with them are counterproductive to achieving a homogenous society.

Agreed, but the word creates that race and stereotype that IS counterproductive to achieving a homogenous society. A society that they wish not to participate in, but rather remove themselves from.

quote: A linguistics professor I had years ago gave me an excellent explaination. This word is used by black people in order to devalue the power that it once had over them. It apparently is a fairly common way that peoples have done this historically. In using a self derogotory word in a socially uplifting way then one gains control of it.

See the second post in this thread.

quote: Without pointing out specific examples there have been several posts that have called into light differences that are based soley on color. I had simply thought our community better than that.

I agree, but that is what this is about. It is not the white community that continues to point out these differences.

	09-03-2004 07:17									#78
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The only sad thing is that you haven't yet responded to one of my points.

I have responded to your point (singular) twice now. Sorry if you're incapable of recognizing it, although as I recall that's how you always "debate". I will give you kudos for turning what started out as a civilized debate into something teetering on the edge of a flame war. Given the subject I suppose it was inevitable.

PLATO

	09-03-2004 07:18									#79
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Theben, The only sad thing is that you haven't yet responded to one of my points. Pax, Which brings up the side issue of why many blacks seem to prefer to be called "African American" (although we can't call white Africans by that term, apparently)... The relevant point is that no one alive today has been negatively impacted by the slave trade - at least, no one alive in America - so no one is justified in hating anyone else because of slavery.

I have been negatively impacted by the slave trade. So has the entire continent of Africa. I already stated that my heritage was stolen. What's more a good portion of the continent of africa is in a state of poverty, war, and disease. Most resources on the continent are controlled by Europe.
Up until only a few years opportunites for blacks were very limited in this country. I can and do blame this for the circumstance I grew up in. The Projects.

	09-03-2004 07:19									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner True, but I also mentioned "mass migrations" especially from Asia.

Surely those who migrate are more likely to be the accepting kind though.

quote: Also, once the invaders "conquered" the Polynesian Kingdom, whether it was another pacific tribe, the English, etc. those invaders have been accepted by the community and absorbed into the Polynesian culture. The Polynesians are a wonderful people.

Before we start getting too dewy-eyed about polynesians, I'd like to point out that in my home country, New Zealand, the polynesians (maori) are happy to treat all other New Zealanders as second class citizens.

	09-03-2004 07:20									#81
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To me, color or race is not an issue. I will punch you in the stomach just the same if you start with them fighting words and push comes to shove. You know, maybe I'd be little easier on the Asian, cause they be smaller. I hate everyone the same amount, which is maximum at all times.

That's all, Thanks.

	09-03-2004 07:21									#82
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We love ya Pekka, for keeping it real

	09-03-2004 07:23									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX it's quite unnerving to be CALLED a nigger by a black person when you're white, as it creates quite an interesting situation. he then called us "honkies" and "loud ass crackers", so me and my roomates have gotten away calling him some insults too. we started off with coon, and then my other friend tried jiggaboo. then my OTHER friend (who has more balls than brains) pulled out "nigga" with no R, and he didn't flip out. we wouldn't dare call him anything whist he was with his "running crew" as he calls them.

Interesting. Did you feel offended by him calling you "honky" or "cracker"?

	09-03-2004 07:23									#84
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quote: I have been negatively impacted by the slave trade. So has the entire continent of Africa. I already stated that my heritage was stolen. What's more a good portion of the continent of africa is in a state of poverty, war, and disease. Most resources on the continent are controlled by Europe. Up until only a few years opportunites for blacks were very limited in this country. I can and do blame this for the circumstance I grew up in. The Projects.

First of all, I was referring to people in America. Secondly, by saying that you were negatively impacted by the slave trade, you are saying that you would be better off if slavery never existed, and you still lived in Africa. Do you make that assertion?

Look, I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just trying to make the point that hating people because of slavery is completely ridiculous. No one alive had anything to do with slavery, and the fact that millions of slaves were imported into America means that today there are millions of people who have opportunities in America they never would have had in Africa. This, I think, is the main point, or at least my main point.

Theben,

I have specifically responded to any of your relevant points that had not already been responded to, and were not repetitive. If I missed one, by all means, point it out and I'll respond to that, too. I'm a reasonable guy, see?

	09-03-2004 07:26									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX it's quite unnerving to be CALLED a nigger by a black person when you're white, as it creates quite an interesting situation. he then called us "honkies" and "loud ass crackers", so me and my roomates have gotten away calling him some insults too. we started off with coon, and then my other friend tried jiggaboo. then my OTHER friend (who has more balls than brains) pulled out "nigga" with no R, and he didn't flip out. we wouldn't dare call him anything whist he was with his "running crew" as he calls them.

I was once on a bus with my shipmates and a group of Canadian sailors in Roosevelt Roads, Puerto Rico. I was the only black person on the bus and one of the Canadians made a comment stating that I should take the bone out of my nose. Most of my crew members as well as the Canadians thought this was funny(laughter). I defended myself verbally by telling them that it was not funny but racist. I immediately asked the driver to stop and got off the bus. I don't know if the fact that my shipmates did'nt stand up for me, laughed, or the comment itself bothered me the most. I do know that people say what's in their hearts.

	09-03-2004 07:28									#86
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quote: you are saying that you would be better off if slavery never existed, and you still lived in Africa. Do you make that assertion?

I think DF makes a good point with this... It comes down to why I don't call black ppl African Americans., every American is American and deserves the same rights. If I can't call someone the N-word with out getting the living daylights kicked out of me, than why should you?

	09-03-2004 07:29									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Sorry, I should have added "to each other anyway".

Doesn't change anything. Europe/America was a new market, and as such there was a rush to fill the demand- often instigated by the colonial powers (i.e. We'll trade with you and give you better arms than your neighbors who you don't like if you bring back gold and slaves). A quick study of colonialism shows that the introduction of superior weaponry has often tipped the scales of power towards on side. Whereas before the differing neighbors would raid each other on occasion, taking a few slaves, now whole villages were being wiped out and enslaved on a wide scale- that WOULD NOT have occurred had the whites not come along.

DF: To your comment about blacks benefitting from slavery by being in America as opposed to some "3rd world shithole", just how do you think most 3rd world countries ended up that way!?

"Gee, mr european, you killed my parents and children and dragged me to god-knows-where to work myself to death for you with no compensation whatsoever- thanks!"

	09-03-2004 07:33									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Japher It is not the white community that continues to point out these differences.

eh, who started this thread and continued it. That's 2 own goals in 2 pages. You guys make this too easy.

EDIT: damn it's 3 pages. Who would've thought it would last this far?

	09-03-2004 07:33									#89
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quote: DF: To your comment about blacks benefitting from slavery by being in America as opposed to some "3rd world shithole", just how do you think most 3rd world countries ended up that way!?

Not entirely or even primarily (or secondarily, or anywhere close to it) from the slave trade. For many nations, it's a lack of natural resources, a lack of military power, being off the main trade routes, etc.

Or maybe you think that without the slave trade, African nations wouldn't be considered Third World?

Sorry, but I disagree. African nations with a great number of natural resources, such as South Africa, are not considered Third World (although South Africa has been going downhill lately). One other thing that has held back Africa is rampant corruption - even if a nation DOES have a lot of natural resources, corrupt governments prevent efficient exploitation and use of said resources.

	09-03-2004 07:34									#90
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quote: "Gee, mr european, you killed my parents and children and dragged me to god-knows-where to work myself to death for you with no compensation whatsoever- thanks!"

I don't think blacks should say or think that. I think that they shouldn't hate white people because of slavery, in part because, let's face it, they are better off in America today than they would be in any African country, even without the slave trade.