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Pax
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I'm saying that all events have a connection. The North and South are linked closer much closer than Saddam Hussein and 9/11. In fact they are joined at the mason-dixon line. If all the slaves were removed from the equation then something has to give to make up for the lost production. The production level decreases. The tax money decreases the ability to field an army decreases. Maybe instead of 30,000 men there would be 20,000. maybe the weapons quality would be poorer. The horses older. The fact is the slaves are an integral part of the success of the U.S.. That's why the middle passage was not the free ride to the goodlife you make it out to be.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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Yes, and on the other hand, perhaps a lack of slaves would have forced the South to industrialize earlier, making the US even more powerful/prosperous. There's no way to know for sure.
But I can categorically tell you that the Indians would have been defeated with or without slaves, assuming the US had the will to do so. That is beyond question.
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Pax
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Why would the indians have been defeated. I just showed that the south would have had a serious manpower shortage. Also, the only way the south could have really industrialized is if they had the same industry as the north. This would have driven the price of northern goods down and the price of formerly southern goods up. Since the south would not be making these then they would not benefit. The north and south would have less money to buy weapons, food, and clothes to support and army because hile the markets for finished products would be flooded. The actual cost for the basic material cotton would have increased.
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Bereta_Eder
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Do in Africa call themselves that? I don't think so since they have no reason to. So what's the reason?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Theben
Doesn't change anything. Europe/America was a new market, and as such there was a rush to fill the demand- often instigated by the colonial powers (i.e. We'll trade with you and give you better arms than your neighbors who you don't like if you bring back gold and slaves). A quick study of colonialism shows that the introduction of superior weaponry has often tipped the scales of power towards on side. Whereas before the differing neighbors would raid each other on occasion, taking a few slaves, now whole villages were being wiped out and enslaved on a wide scale- that WOULD NOT have occurred had the whites not come along. |
Damn those evil whites!
This just goes to show what DF and I have been saying all along - that blacks are just as guilty of participating in slavery as whites.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Uber KruX
my first day there, i was greeted with a "whats up nigger?". that DID kind of freak me out, but i don't think i can say it offended me. i didn't really know how to respond to that.
when he started calling us crackers and honkies, i have to say i was a little offended. i don't THINK i am a honkey, cracker, or what have you. it was kind of insulting that he would inssuate that i was a racist without even knowing me (thats my definition of cracker, please correct me). he just threw out those words without even getting to know me, and i felt kind of offended. but i guess thats just the way he is. i don't think he means anything by it, so i'm alright with it now. i still stop when he says it, but i don't think much of it anymore. |
The funny thing is that if a black person called me nigger as in "whats up nigger?" I would take it as a gesture of friendship.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax Africanus
If the Europeans would not have colonized we don't know what would have happened. |
A pretty safe bet would be that things would have remained the same as they had been for the last 40,000 years.
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dainbramage20
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Chicago
Feb 2004
time: 05:34
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Pax. By No means am I racist or such. And By no Means do I intentionally intend to come off that way. I love all races and break bread with all of them. I simply dislike attitudes and attire and I dislike the popular culture embraced by african americans (and some others) influencing todays attitudes and dress in this area as it teach kids that there is no hope in this world and your only goal in life is to get rich or die tryin. No ambition to be something productive like a docter, None to be a lawyer, Not even a mechanic. Ive trained hundreds of African Americans at work. I can say without a doubt 98% of them dont stay. They have there priorities wrong. Some came in late smelling of marijuana, others just dont call. And yet others will lie right to your face despite the blame for a problem being solely in there hands.
Alot of African-Americans need help NOW. Not
tommorrow, not 2010, NOW. You need to catch up. You are in danger of being further marginalized politically and economically, not worth pandering too cause 60% dont even vote (gallup poll from 2000). Whatever idea's from the Left or Right I would like to hear them.
Of course back on topic. I dont use that word. Its disrespectful tho I hear african americans use that word alot. It doesnt bother me too much. As its an in-culture thing I guess. I wont get it cause im not inside the culture. Im so Damn white If I step outside in the sun for a tan, I get whiter.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
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To the actual topic, I just think that the word nigger is used amongst some black people is because it's a slang word, close meaning to brother in a way. Historical meaning would be something like 'we are in the same boat', both black and both slaves. That's what I think about it, however I can't say this as a fact, being a dirty euro, you Americans know better than me.
I think people can say to friends what ever they want, if it is accepted by them. If my buddy says to me in a gym 'come on you ***** let's do it!' comparing to some punk saying it to me who I don't know it would be different. The stranger is not allowed to call me that in a way that is friendly. But my friend can call me that and still be friendly. Stranger CAN try that, but it's not funny most likely. Insults can be taken, as they are not meant to be insults, but from strangers, they are not in the same position to do that. So if a black person calls another black person nigga, it's really not my problem and if they both don't feel bad about it, why shouldn't they be able to do that. We can all think it's kind of stupid, but if they really feel like it, by all means go ahead.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
With the slight difference that the white societies at that time said they were enlightened and morally better than those uncivilized Barbs.... |
...as opposed to your typically humble african tribe?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
That's meaningless speculation. You cannot exactly foresee the development of an entire continent. |
I didn't. I said it would be a pretty safe bet. The burden of proof is on you if you think things would have changed without the injection of whites into the equation.
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MrBaggins
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
*SNIP*
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I'd just like to point out that I consider the discussion of the N word by Finns one of the most potentially ironic and amusing topics yet, especially considering Finland is, in my experience a land of whiteness, not even counting the copious snow in winter.
No offense or anything... just an observation.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
I'm just not seeing how Africa, as a continent, or any individual country in Africa, would have been significantly better off without the slave trade. |
People who don't know **** about Africa shouldn't take part in the debate ans should sit back and learn something. One hundred million Africans were taken from Africa during the centuries of the slave trade. What do you think that does to a society, to an economy. Almost every state collapsed under the onslaught of the slavers to feed America's insatiable appetite?
Why? Because, outside the U.S. slaves were regularly worked to death, because buying news slaves was cheaper than keeping your old ones alive. Imagine Auschwitz on a continental scale and you have the slave system of the Americas (excluding the English North American colonies).
Before the slave trade? Congo was a Cathollic country with an ambassador in Lisbon. Mali went on the largest most expensive Hadj in the history of Islam. They dumped so much gold in the Arab market that, Europeans started trading in the Middle East, bringing back spices and silks. This trip changed history.
If it weren't for European plunder of Africa (and India and China), those countries wouldn't be anywhere near so bad as they are today, an we wouldn't be anywhere near so rich?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
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mindseye,
quote:
David Floyd, when you argue that many blacks are better off today because their relatives came to the US as slaves, are you arguing that the end justifies the means? |
As I've stated numerous times before, of course not - slavery was morally wrong.
che,
quote:
If it weren't for European plunder of Africa (and India and China), those countries wouldn't be anywhere near so bad as they are today, an we wouldn't be anywhere near so rich? |
While I don't deny this would have had an impact, the fact still remains that Europe and the US would be far better places to live than Africa.
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Bereta_Eder
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Could we please not generalize? Europe did that Europe did the other. Specific countries did specific things. Not "Europe" Doesn't mean anything. Thanks.
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09-03-2004 10:20
. If anything, the true meaning and impact of the word is trivialized, and not for the greater good of a people. 
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