10-03-2004 01:13									#1
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Was the CTP1 worker system better?

I remember it being useful but cant really comment on weather it was better or worse. Im wondering was it a better system than the one they opted for in CTP2 (with my basic knowledge of it, it seems to be much better and customizable) but obviously activision removed it for some reason (was it that it too closely resembled sid meir civ game features) i dunno

If you dont know what im talking about ive attached an image to refresh your brain

Attachment: workers.jpg
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	10-03-2004 01:50									#2
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I really cant remember either. I like PW though since its not about creating workers like Civ3 but about the resources you have.

I would like to see specialists and workers eventually moddable so you can have a class system like aristocrats, mid-class, poor, slave etc. With the differences in classes having differnt impacts on your govt and benefits/disadvantages.

	10-03-2004 02:08									#3
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this has nothing to do with the PW system

	10-03-2004 02:20									#4
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i liked it better but im sure others dont miss the micromanagement, it was nice to decide if you wanted to sacrifice growth for production in a certain city etc

	10-03-2004 02:43									#5
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It was a good idea as you could use it to stagnate growth or increase food production but the major bug was that after you got a few slaves you could only place slaves rather then farmers.

	10-03-2004 02:52									#6
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i forgot all about! that guess it needed some work afterall

	10-03-2004 03:38									#7
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WAY BETTER!!

quote: It was a good idea as you could use it to stagnate growth or increase food production

You may need to work on the bug part but I liked it for the sole reason listed above. It helps when you are faced with hard choices to have some more options. If people don't want to deal with it, they are assigned automatically anyway. It's just that you have the CHOICE to reassign them to a square that you would prefer worked!

	10-03-2004 04:05									#8
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i like the more mysterious, less micro-management way CTP2 does it - in CTP after your 20th city it could get a little tiresome checking them all the time

Still i like the aspect of control - so maybe a half way house would be best or an option to choose which way at the game start or maybe to set a time/amount of cities owned when it would flip over to the CTP2 system?

	10-03-2004 04:13									#9
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The idea of a middle way house is an idea.

You remember the ctp system you could assign the collection of goods which in ctp2 you would not be able to trade.

It may also pay to have options of what kind of person you want on a tile. Farmer ,trader or engineer for production you could also put a slave on the tile for a general production system.

	10-03-2004 13:54									#10
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I haven't voted yet, but:

Till now, people complained they can't stop growth You can do it with the CTP2 system, just assign them as specialists (meaning not farmer, so scientists, entertainers, merchants and industriell workers(not sure, using the German version) ).

So you want your city to produce more, change the workers to specialists in production. Where is the problem? And you don't assign them on a tile basis, just overall picture. You are the leader and don't have to bother about MM (MicroManagement). It is like telling the mayor just the big picture.

For increasing food production: Just assign farmers, allthough it will work only till a certain point of max-growth (depending on Gervernment/city-size/improvements).

SO I don't see any good reason to change anything. (Unless people can pursuade/convince me).

	10-03-2004 14:09									#11
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Gilgamensch I thick it was much better you could assign workers to work tiles with greater food at the further reaches of you city something you could not do in ctp2

	10-03-2004 14:25									#12
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OK, for this I agree, but nowadays you have instead farmers. So not so much difference. And less problems after another foreign unit trambled over your land and you had to reassign your workers..............

	10-03-2004 14:52									#13
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Yes but that’s something we can change

	10-03-2004 15:29									#14
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I am not sure, if I ant to have it changed. I finally decided: No is my decision. I just don't like this MM. And the specialist feature is at least for my, far more superior.

	10-03-2004 16:04									#15
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the CTP1 worker system is an advanced version of the CTP2 system

its tottaly optional weather you ignore it or use it

Just say there is resource in a cities radius that you REALLY want for some reason or another (especially when a civ3 style resource system is introduced). Using the CTP2 method, you could do NOTHING about it if your workers where not working on the resource square (except wait and hope that the next city population increase created a virtual worker on the resource tile)

Using the CTP1 method you could decide yourself to work on that tile, even if it meant stagnating growth or minusing production

you would still get wat you want.

I have voted yes after thinking about both systems (i of course own CTP1 and CTP2 so have played with both systems)

	10-03-2004 16:08									#16
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Well the specialist would till be in effect. You could have an entertainer in your city but you just get one less virtual worker on your tiles. If you got an engineer you can have him in the city or place him on a tile to increase production on that square.

	10-03-2004 17:31									#17
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Actually a question for those who support the idea:

How do you want to manage this once you reached the maximum size (of land usage)? You can hardly see which sort of tiles are there?

	10-03-2004 17:44									#18
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I agree... this works well for 9 or 21 squares, but past that, I bet that the system would get unwieldy.

	10-03-2004 18:05									#19
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easy we put the screen in its own window so its big and then allow you to place your farmers where you want them.

	10-03-2004 18:10									#20
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The problem still remains that this becomes a huge job for big cities... micromanagement thats utterly unnecessary.

It'd be better to keep the existing system, but have a drop down list to specialize slightly... which change the percentage of resources that are gained for each category (I.E. Balanced = 100/100/100, Food = 110/90/90, Prod = 90/110/90, Comm = 90/90/110)

I.E. not work squares... which by its definition limits pop size to a set number of squares, but use the existing fractional gain system, plus a specialization option.

	10-03-2004 18:15									#21
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The mayor is there to do this if you don’t want to you can specify the slide bars and the mayor will automatically juggle them about it just allows micromanagement for the people who like that thing.

	10-03-2004 18:19									#22
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The mayors do far more than just do this. You might want to change land usage, but not change building choices and PW expenditure.

I'd consider it an entirely different setting.

I wouldn't want to have to rely on an automated setting to run a city late in the game. That sounds terribly MoO3... not a terribly good idea.

	10-03-2004 18:31									#23
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we could possibly have a game start up option ctp land usage or ctp2

	10-03-2004 18:36									#24
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Why bother...

Seriously... the first few worker placements might be vital, but past that they are of less and less importance... and you shouldn't be designing a game where the player is offered unimportant choices for the majority of the game.

The reason we can't just simply have two different systems in the game, is that the game is built and balanced for the abstracted worker system. Having real workers will reinforce ICS (or REX) too, I'd like to point out.

	10-03-2004 18:47									#25
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Or even worse, a thing I never liked in Civ III:

You just build a city with good food and you have a settler-factory (OK, not so much in CTP2, due to the higher cost) or the worst one: building a city which can hardly survive and you build military units like crazy (mainly only true for ancient units though).

And this would be another exploit by the human, or better to say weakness of the AI not able to adapt cities to specific demands.

	10-03-2004 19:06									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch OK, for this I agree, but nowadays you have instead farmers. So not so much difference. And less problems after another foreign unit trambled over your land and you had to reassign your workers..............

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins I agree... this works well for 9 or 21 squares, but past that, I bet that the system would get unwieldy.

quote: Having real workers will reinforce ICS (or REX) too, I'd like to point out.

Precisely. CtP2 system means far less micromanagement (especially since buttons for specialists could be added to the National Manager to make things even easier) but other than that has the exact same effect as the CtP1 system.

Also, the CtP2 system makes more sense historically as your people work in concentric circles around the city in CtP2, rather than in arbitray squares of which no equivalent actually exists IRL.

quote: the CTP1 worker system is an advanced version of the CTP2 system

How is it more advanced? It's more work to manage and it gets messed up everytime an enemy unit walks by. Other than that, the effects are the same as with specialists. It's just the other way around.

quote: its tottaly optional weather you ignore it or use it

Same for the specialists system. Except that if you choose not to use the worker system, your city's resource collection will never be optimal as AI units and the like constantly mess it up. This will never happen with the specialist system.

quote: Just say there is resource in a cities radius that you REALLY want for some reason or another (especially when a civ3 style resource system is introduced).

In the present CtP2 system, ALL trade goods within a city radius get worked (unless they're in the outermost ring and you have a lot of specialists assigned so that the outer ring isn't being worked at all, but that's under your own control). So this is actually an advantage of the CtP2 system.

	10-03-2004 19:20									#27
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[Sorry- i had posted this in the wrong place!]


I like what Mr.Baggins is hinting at - i dont want a huge micro-management hell, nor do i want to have to resort to a 'Mayor' system(never used them as they are crazy!) when things get a bit hectic at the 15-20 city mark.

So we keep the CTP2 system, but give the player some control, mostly over resource gathering i guess. Many a time i've had to choose a worse city site because i needed a trade good sooner rather than later........

As has been pointed out, you can use the specialist workers in CTP2 to maximise things like Food and Production, so i think its just the resources that get a bit left out?

Maybe have an extra specialist for trade goods? If there are more than one trade good out of normal reach, you could get a pop-up menu to select the type you want to exploit?

	10-03-2004 19:26									#28
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For the trade good:

IIRC correctly it was before the release of the source-code, there was the suggestion to introduce the colony feature. Instead of having a city, you should be able to build a colony over it. Voila problem resolved

	10-03-2004 19:27									#29
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor [Sorry- i had posted this in the wrong place!] I like what Mr.Baggins is hinting at - i dont want a huge micro-management hell, nor do i want to have to resort to a 'Mayor' system(never used them as they are crazy!) when things get a bit hectic at the 15-20 city mark. So we keep the CTP2 system, but give the player some control, mostly over resource gathering i guess. Many a time i've had to choose a worse city site because i needed a trade good sooner rather than later........ As has been pointed out, you can use the specialist workers in CTP2 to maximise things like Food and Production, so i think its just the resources that get a bit left out? Maybe have an extra specialist for trade goods? If there are more than one trade good out of normal reach, you could get a pop-up menu to select the type you want to exploit?

Honestly, I think that having an Outpost system (very simple "cities" that can be placed that collect goods/resources- but not food/prod/gold, and/or build units or military improvements) would work better than that.

Edit... same thing as colony... btw

	10-03-2004 19:52									#30
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I prefer the CTP1 setup

The CTP2 format is definitely more streamlined, but...

What I don't like about the CTP2 system is that tile improvements are practically worthless until you are able to completely work the entire ring of terrain.

And the CTP1 setup is a big improvement over the civ2-civ3 setup because of the maximize production/growth/commerce/science buttons.