14-03-2004 23:10									#331
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	27-03-2004 09:46									#332
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quote: seems a very empty way of doing it.

Empty? That's an odd phrase to apply. I would think that those who successfully pledge would further appreciate their accomplishment given these numbers.

quote: But at least you answered my question, although what form of support is required to help people keep their pledges?

Churches help. Role models, of others who are pledging. Different sorts of entertainment that don't require drinking, and sex to be enjoyed.

I think it really is true, that teens in isolated areas find sex as a way to relieve boredom.

quote: What can you do, separate the sexes?

That's the whole idea behind organisations like Boy Scouts, and Girl Guides.

quote: Protect them from the real world?

All children, are in some extent protected from the real world while growing up.

	27-03-2004 10:08									#333
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quote: I'll stick with the argument that in fact these numbers won't improve, and that the reason for that is that the desire for sex over a significant period of time, is stronger than any social stigma over the same period of time, for 9 out of 10 people.

Can they wait 20 years? Even if the desire increases over time, to eventually overcome the stigma does not mean that the time period is too short for them to wait.

quote: "Treatment" of OCD involves serotonin reuptake inhibitor or SRI, which replaces a naturally occurring serotonin process, found in patients without the same congenital issue. Its not a choice... its a chemical insufficiency.

Again, treatment will help them bring their desires under control. Same point I made before. I know OCD is not a choice, but just because it has a genetic cause does not mean that the condition is not treatable to some extent. Genes do not determine behaviour.

One of my best friends had OCD, and nothing that you posted is unfamiliar to me. I know that the treatment is not the best, but it does help considerably.

quote: 99% (and the remainder being either physically incapable or socially abberant) doesn't indicate something??? Is sex natural, or an unnatural creation of society?

99% among those who do not pledge. This clearly shows that the desire can be controlled.

Secondly, just because a behaviour is natural, does not mean we ought to indulge in the behaviour, nor does it mean that we cannot control ourselves.

Sex is a very obvious example of a natural behaviour, that can be controlled should one try.

quote: Totally unsubstantiated bullshit. Prove with peer reviewed numbers... Yes... I really want you to provide these.

HPV infection figures.

Fair enough.

How common is HPV?

Approximately 20 million people are currently infected with HPV. At least 50 percent of sexually active men and women acquire genital HPV infection at some point in their lives. By age 50, at least 80 percent of women will have acquired genital HPV infection. About 5.5 million Americans get a new genital HPV infection each year.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/HPV/STDFact-HPV.htm

You have a problem with the CDC?

quote: Your moral repugnance has nothing to do with anything.

Fair enough. Point still well taken, that we should not let a rapist absolve himself because his genes made him do so. I do not believe their is any such condition that you have asserted in which this rapist could not control himself around women.

quote: No... I don't believe that a *predisposed* rapist should be convicted and sent to jail... I believe he should be sent to a mental institution. Courts are unable to judge the exact factors of why a rapist, raped, and therein lies its fallability.

Is there any such thing as a predisposition that cannot be controlled?

quote: At which point they'd be having sex... so their sexual desires would be fulfilled... whats your point again?

That's my point. I have no problem with one waiting until marriage to fulfill their sexual desires. You have to demonstrate that such delay is damaging to the individuals involved.

quote: You mean the priests who don't rape little boys, or the ones that do?

4% are accused, which is far from proof. I call double standard. You ignore the 12 percent who successfully pledge as insignificant, yet you consider the 4% accused significant enough to explain away the rest.

quote: A genetic abnormality where a person has no sex drive due to hormonal imbalance (present at birth... due to genetic influences) or impotence would account for these people.

Your previous argument argues against you. If some of these priest do indulge their passions, indicates that not all those who take holy orders do so because they are genetically predispositioned against sex. One could perhaps say that those who do refrain, might have other causes, such as the society in which they grow up.

Consider this, there have been periods of growth and decline in terms of the number who take up holy orders. Can all of these swings be explained by purely genetic factors?

If one were to suppose that environment plays a role, I think you could find many other alternate explanations, such as a society that values men and women in holy orders.

quote: Social factors might influence some normal people to abstain, but they'd need to be abnormally suggestive to that.

Have you ever heard of the term 'vocation?' Unless one has some knowledge of the church, it is unlikely that one would take up holy orders.

quote: Nope... the point was that a few people might be genetically abberant, causing abnormally low sex drive due to hormonal deficiencies or impotence.

Precisely my point. Not everyone is predisposed to sex. Thank you Mr. Baggins.

	27-03-2004 10:12									#334
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quote: Sorry to pop in this thread, but I just want to tell that my girlfriend definitely doesn't separate sex from love, and we had numerous discussions about it: she cannot imagine having sex with someone she doesn't love, and she strongly rejects the very idea I have sex to somebody I don't love.

Fine.

quote: Yet, we had sex before being married. Sorry to state the obvious, but you can be in love without knowing if you're ready for a lifelong commitment yet.

Eh, if I remember correctly, it takes two to love. Just because the two of you have sex does not mean that you love each other.

Even if she cannot seperate sex from love, does not mean that you cannot do differently. In fact, I would likely suggest that you do not consider the two at all related.

This puts her in a tough position, unless you make some kind of lifelong commitment. What's stopping you from walking away?

	27-03-2004 10:15									#335
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quote: Why within marriage? After all, marriage is just an anachronistic concept that is meaningless.

Because sex is best within marriage.

quote: People should have sex with whom they want (assuming all parties are consenting of course ), irrelevent of marriage, irrelevent of sex.

Why then is sex anything more than just a form of entertainment? Marriage without sex works just as well as sex without marriage.

quote: Also, by intent, are you trying to eliminate gay sex (after all, you won't let them get married, and there is no sex before marriage).

Guilty as charged.

	27-03-2004 10:21									#336
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quote: You might (and I really want to stress might) have a point if 88% of people who took the pledge did in fact remain abstinent until marriage, but it's the complete opposite. The study showed that only 11% more remained abstinent after a pledge than without, and you're acting like the pledge is a major step in the right direction.

Pledging is tough. That's why I consider it to be a major step in the right direction. I would like to see better numbers, but pledgers do not get much support at all in society.

In fact, I will admit, that more of the successful pledgers will be religious simply because religion provides some support for those who pledge. At least in my own case, it did not, as I made a pledge well before I became a Christian. It made my life simpler.

quote: so your great 11% "success rate" is in reality even less.

Not all who pledge do so for religious reasons, and among those who do, still count among the successful pledgers.

Just because you are religious, or a member of a religion, does not mean that all your temptations fade away. I would argue that in some cases, your temptations will increase.

The big difference, is that you get plenty more help, if you are religious, than if you are not.

	27-03-2004 12:01									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Guilty as charged.

But of course you're anything but homophobic, right?