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MrBaggins
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It can be done, ergo, it is realistic.
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If it can be done, and people have free will, why did 88% fail their pledges utterly?
quote:
So why are you posting here right now? 
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I generally don't have sex while working. Also, my girl is in Philadelphia... and its better in person.
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Genes do not determine behavior. One can always choose to restrain the urge, otherwise, we would have no cause to arrest rapists, as they would simply fulfill their imperative.
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Genes don't determine behavior? Not every behavior, certainly since perceptive reasoning of our environment also has some effect on behavior... however, there are certain behaviors which are common to all organisms with DNA... I.E. genetically determined.
- Sex, which has been around since Precambrian life.
- Survival and/or protection of progeny.
These behaviors were exhibited in the most rudimentary of organisms... and exist in all organisms today, irrespective of their environment, ability to reason, or isolation.
Organisms which don't follow this mandate die out, by natural selection.
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You mentioned Rapists, however. Rapists have several psychological features beyond other people (who don't rape) which compel their acting to rape, and some are socially and some genetically derived... A paraphilia coupled with Antisocial Personal Disorder.
A paraphilia on its own wouldn't compel rape because their psyche balances their desire to perform an aberant sexual act, with its effect on others. Those with Antisocial Personal Disorder don't balance this, because they exhibit a number of the following features, usually including violent sympathetic features:
- callous unconcern for the feelings of others
- gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules and obligations
- incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them
- very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence
- incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment
- marked proneness to blame others, or to offer plausible rationalizations, for the behaviour that has brought the patient into conflict with society.
These alone aren't sufficient to excuse a rapist, in the eyes of the law... that would require a disassociation disorder or some pscyological feature which prevented their reasoning that a particular act was wrong.
So... some rapists are convicted, and some are found legally insane (which you didn't mention.) The pschyological features which compel rape are separate and distinct from those which excuse the action in the eyes of the law.
quote:
For a time, yes. There is a time and place for intercourse.
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Yes... and humans have inhibitions which can prevent sexual gratification, although placing them in an appropriate environment with a receptive partner will often result in sexual activity.
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Again, my rapist case, plus, not everyone has intercourse, ergo, genes cannot determine behavior.
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See above regarding the rapist case.
Not everyone has intercourse? What percentage of the population would you say thats true for?
I guess you don't have any peer reviewed figures for it... 
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BAM
It does work, for some, it works better than a condom could ever hope. |
In 88% of cases, it doesn't apparently, and you could hardly call the rest successes, since they married earlier than average.
If people can resist... why don't they all resist?
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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Che,
Exactly. I was actually going to post that, but you beat me to it. Also, I'm still wondering where Ben got that 99% figure for non-pledgers. He claims it is from the first post, but neither what was posted nor the link (they're identical, actually) makes any mention whatsoever about that.
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Capt Dizle
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The concept of abstinence stems from religious teachings. In Christianity, many teachings reach back to the Old Testament law. I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law, though both Christians and Jews still observe it, or try to. In fulfilling the law through His life, teachings, and death, Christ taught us a better, closer way to live in the spirit of God.
The point of Jesus’ teachings on the law, was that the law is beyond us. We cannot obey the law. We cannot defeat the desires of our flesh. It is what humanity is all about. Jesus taught us to love each other and not to judge. And he taught that those among us who sought to administer the law over us are hypocrites.
Abstinence is a good thing. But it is descended from the law, and only a few can bear it. To teach abstinence from sex as a means of birth control or disease control ignores this basic teaching of Christ. Abstinence is a way to honor God and ourselves. It is a form of sacrifice, a personal commitment that should not be thrust upon the people as a standard of behavior.
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MRT144
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Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by jimmytrick
The concept of abstinence stems from religious teachings. In Christianity, many teachings reach back to the Old Testament law. I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law, though both Christians and Jews still observe it, or try to. In fulfilling the law through His life, teachings, and death, Christ taught us a better, closer way to live in the spirit of God.
The point of Jesus¡¦teachings on the law, was that the law is beyond us. We cannot obey the law. We cannot defeat the desires of our flesh. It is what humanity is all about. Jesus taught us to love each other and not to judge. And he taught that those among us who sought to administer the law over us are hypocrites.
Abstinence is a good thing. But it is descended from the law, and only a few can bear it. To teach abstinence from sex as a means of birth control or disease control ignores this basic teaching of Christ. Abstinence is a way to honor God and ourselves. It is a form of sacrifice, a personal commitment that should not be thrust upon the people as a standard of behavior. |
holy ****ing ghost of john ritter, i agree with jimmytrick
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Capt Dizle
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Casual sex is destructive behavior, short of the glory of God. It is sin. It is not okay.
But I am not going to condemn anyone for it.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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jimmytrick:
You need to make a distinction between temporary abstinence and permanent abstinence.
While the latter, not all will be able to do, the former is definitely possible for everyone.
Waiting until marriage is a form of temporary abstinence, while permanent abstinence is usually done only by priests.
quote:
It is a form of sacrifice, a personal commitment that should not be thrust upon the people as a standard of behavior.
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Again, Christ makes the case for marriage as the proper expression of sexuality, as a standard of conduct. You are right that, 'those who can accept this word, ought to accept the word,' applies to abstinence, but only to permanent and not temporary abstinence.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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quote:
If it can be done, and people have free will, why did 88% fail their pledges utterly?
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Why do people have abortions when they have such perfect contraception?
Same reasons. People aren't perfect, they make mistakes.
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I generally don't have sex while working. Also, my girl is in Philadelphia... and its better in person.
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That's unnatural to deny yourself your rightful sex needs. I'm sure you can find someone who will be willing to fulfill your desires, who is much closer than Philadelphia.
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Genes don't determine behavior? Not every behavior, certainly since perceptive reasoning of our environment also has some effect on behavior... however, there are certain behaviors which are common to all organisms with DNA... I.E. genetically determined.
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Again, regardless of how common a behavior is, one does have control over their actions.
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Sex, which has been around since Precambrian life.
Survival and/or protection of progeny.
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This would only be an argument against those who never have sex, and not for those who wait for marriage.
If those who wait, have more children, than those who do not, does not temporary abstinence confer a survival benefit? Would not evolution select those whom could wait?
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You mentioned Rapists, however. Rapists have several psychological features beyond other people (who don't rape) which compel their acting to rape, and some are socially and some genetically derived... A paraphilia coupled with Antisocial Personal Disorder.
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Yeah, so? I'm sure all rapists rape because their genes made them do so.
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These alone aren't sufficient to excuse a rapist, in the eyes of the law... that would require a disassociation disorder or some pscyological feature which prevented their reasoning that a particular act was wrong.
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Yes, but you have just denied your earlier case. If their is some genetic basis that encourages someone to rape, and genes determine behavior, than why do we condemn rapists for their actions?
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Yes... and humans have inhibitions which can prevent sexual gratification, although placing them in an appropriate environment with a receptive partner will often result in sexual activity.
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So choosing to pledge is merely an ínhibition?
I could easily see how waiting confers a survival advantage.
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Not everyone has intercourse? What percentage of the population would you say thats true for?
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Probably about 1-2%
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I guess you don't have any peer reviewed figures for it...
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Do you really want to challenge me for them?
Regardless of what you believe, there are people who never have sex. They are a direct refutation that sexual desires cannot be resisted.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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Ah, nice to see an article futher confirm my case.
Devices don't guard against HPV, White House argues
The Associated Press
Updated: 9:59 a.m. ET March 12, 2004WASHINGTON -
The Bush administration is considering requiring warning labels on condom packages noting that the contraceptive devices do not protect users from all sexually transmitted diseases.
Most recent studies indicate condoms do not safeguard against human papillomavirus, or HPV, a little-known but widespread sexually transmitted disease that, untreated, can cause genital warts or cervical cancer.
The FDA “has developed a regulatory plan to provider condom users with a consistent labeling message and the protection they should expect from condom use,” Dr. Daniel G. Schultz, director of the agency’s Office of Device Evaluation, said Thursday.
The agency “is preparing new guidance on condom labeling to address these issues,” Schultz told members of a House Government Reform subcommittee.
Warnings deter use?
Package labels now say that condoms, if properly used, reduce the risk of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases. The labels are silent on the issue of HPV. The question now is whether that statement needs to have any additional information regarding protection against the cervical cancer virus — without discouraging people from using condoms for AIDS protection.
The FDA has considered warning labels since 2000, when President Clinton directed the agency to re-examine whether information included in packages accurately reflected condom effectiveness in preventing all sexually transmitted diseases, including HPV.
But some lawmakers feared that such labels could turn people away from using condoms, thereby increasing the risk of contracting diseases such as AIDS, chlamydia and gonorrhea.
“Anything that undermines the effectiveness of condoms for these uses will have serious public health consequences,” said Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif. “Are condoms perfect? Of course not.
But reality requires us not to make a public health strategy against protection, but rather to ask a key question: compared to what?”
DATA STDs in America
The American Social Health Association estimates there are more than 15 million new cases of sexually transmitted diseases in the United States each year.
STD Incidence*
Chlamydia 3 million
Gonorrhea 650,000
Syphilis 70,000
Herpes 1 million
Human papillomavirus 5.5 million
Hepatitis B 77,000
Trichomoniasis 5 million
HIV 20,000
*Number of new cases in a given time period
Source: ASHA • Print this
2 million women infected
Some lawmakers “insist that abstinence-only education is the solution to teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases because abstinence works each time,” Waxman said. “Well, the evidence, however, indicates that abstinence-only education works rarely, if at all.”
Responded Rep. Jo Ann Davis, R-Va.: “This is not about social ideology, or religious ideology. It’s about informing women. ... And truly, the only way to be protected is abstinence. That’s not ideology — it’s fact.”
The White House wants to double, to $270 million, federal spending on education programs to convince young people that abstinence is the only certain way to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. But an independent report for the government two years ago indicated that no reliable evidence exists that abstinence programs work.
More than 2 million American women are infected with HPV each year, said Dr. Ed Thompson, deputy director for public health services at the Centers for Disease Control. Ten thousand women are diagnosed annually with cervical cancer, claiming 4,000 lives, Thompson said.
© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Indeed, compared to what? Abstinence will work if done properly. Condoms, even if used properly, will NOT protect you from HPV.
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12-03-2004 19:12
Well how about a swap? But I'll take PP over Families of the Americas (?) or any other christian-biased planning any day. 
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