12-03-2004 05:21									#241
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quote: stating an alternate cause as to why people who dont cohabitate might not get divorced as much.

And I am saying is that religion cannot be seperated from those who pledge.

The cause and effect relationship, if true, would still not contradict my point.

	12-03-2004 05:37									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Where's the Billings method in all of this?

the cervical mucus (ovulation) method.

For all FAMs, plannedparenthood didn't offer separate versions for actual pregnancies per 100 women, presumably for lack of data. It did offer separate versions for ideal scenarios, which left the Billings method at 97% success rate. Higher than condoms (70%-96%), but 0% on STD transmission.

	12-03-2004 05:39									#243
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the problem is though ben, despite people taking these formal pledges, and it being a pretty recent thing, divorce hasnt been going down.

and religion can be seperated. I pledge i wont have premarital sex and im areligious.

	12-03-2004 05:42									#244
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quote: For all FAMs, plannedparenthood didn't offer separate versions for actual pregnancies per 100 women

Well then, I thought you were arguing the real, and not the ideal.

quote: It did offer separate versions for ideal scenarios, which left the Billings method at 97% success rate.

How do they derive this number?

quote: but 0% on STD transmission

Again, this method really only works for married couples, because the woman needs to keep a detailed record of her cervical mucus.

So I consider STD transmission to be irrelevent to the Billings method, because they assume a monogamous relationship.

	12-03-2004 05:45									#245
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quote: despite people taking these formal pledges, and it being a pretty recent thing, divorce hasnt been going down.

Not enough people to make a statistically significant impact.

However, one can show a correlation between the increase in cohabitation, and the increase in divorce rates.

quote: and religion can be seperated. I pledge i wont have premarital sex and im areligious.

Would you consider yourself to be typical or atypical of the sample of those who pledge?

	12-03-2004 05:50									#246
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So i consider your opinion irrelevant because youre a self righteous zealot.

You chose to ignore half of the arguement with your "method". Your invalid ben.

Abstaining from sex doesnt work like you think it should because people are people.

	12-03-2004 05:55									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi However, one can show a correlation between the increase in cohabitation, and the increase in divorce rates.

right, but not for the reasons you think. Im not arguing that cohabitation and divorce are correlated. Its the cause for cohabitation and divorce. Religionists dont like cohabitation, and they dont like divorce, rather than living together causes divorce.

Then again is divorce really that bad? Should people stay in unfufilling marriages? Should marriage just be for god and kids? I dont have the answers but i certainly dont like yours.

	12-03-2004 05:59									#248
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 and religion can be seperated. I pledge i wont have premarital sex and im areligious.

Aren't you the one who used to have sex like crazy, including one session involving a telephone card?

	12-03-2004 06:01									#249
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quote: and religion can be seperated. I pledge i wont have premarital sex and im areligious.

Just stupid

Does anyone think its strange that Ben supports pledges, which have a 10ish% success rate over condoms which have a 90ish% success right (higher if you're not an idiot and know how to use them and don't use evil evil evil japanese condoms).

quote: You would understand if you saw a pic of my ex. Best argument to take a pledge.

So you do have a sense of humor after all. Good to see it.

	12-03-2004 06:02									#250
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quote: You chose to ignore half of the arguement with your "method". Your invalid ben.

No, I do not ignore, rather I say that the method does not work for one-night stands.

It would be obvious to anyone who actually bothered to read the link as to why. The method takes time, investment, and trust between the partners, something you do not see when you slap on a condom.

quote: Abstaining from sex doesnt work like you think it should because people are people.

Again, ideally, abstinence is better than condoms. In the real world, people forget to use condoms, just like people decline their pledge.

	12-03-2004 06:04									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Aren't you the one who used to have sex like crazy, including one session involving a telephone card?

The point im making is anyone can make these pledges and it doesnt mean ****! Saying a pledge and following through are different things.

people who make pledges are just fooling their parents so they can go drink beer and **** on the weekends.

	12-03-2004 06:08									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, I do not ignore, rather I say that the method does not work for one-night stands. It would be obvious to anyone who actually bothered to read the link as to why. The method takes time, investment, and trust between the partners, something you do not see when you slap on a condom. Again, ideally, abstinence is better than condoms. In the real world, people forget to use condoms, just like people decline their pledge.

and thats the problem with preaching it. ITs unrealistic to expect people who want to explore sex to use a method that involves commitment.

dont be naive and condemn something to uphold your own moral superiority ben.

	12-03-2004 06:19									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well then, I thought you were arguing the real, and not the ideal.

One can safely assume that the real is much lower, although IMO the majority of the 25% failure rate for FAMs would be rhythm and thermal methods.

quote: Again, this method really only works for married couples, because the woman needs to keep a detailed record of her cervical mucus. So I consider STD transmission to be irrelevent to the Billings method, because they assume a monogamous relationship.

Perhaps it only works for married couples, but no one but you has assumed monogamous= married. And monogamous realtionships can still involve one partner with an STD and one without.

	12-03-2004 06:38									#254
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quote: Perhaps it only works for married couples, but no one but you has assumed monogamous= married. And monogamous realtionships can still involve one partner with an STD and one without.

Sorry, my slips showing.

It could work for any monogamous couples who are willing to take the time and effort to learn the method, and to chart the cycles.

It takes about 3 cycles to get a basis for which types of mucus indicate ovulation and which do not.

As for the STD, some are treatable and some are not. If you are married, then you will have the time to treat your partner to prevent re-infection.

For the uncurable ones, they would be a small sample for whom this method would not help.

quote: One can safely assume that the real is much lower,

Actually, all the tests done on Billings give about a 99% success rate, higher than the 'ideal case' purported by Planned Parenthood.

If one is to accept the figures of the condom advocates as accurate for condoms, one ought to also accept the numbers given by the Billings folks for their method.

	12-03-2004 06:38									#255
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Theben, youre going to pull him out of the beniverse

	12-03-2004 06:42									#256
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quote: ITs unrealistic to expect people who want to explore sex to use a method that involves commitment.

Well, then.

No further argument.

I argue intercourse ought to take place between a couple who are willing to make a commitment.

quote: dont be naive and condemn something to uphold your own moral superiority ben.

Where do I condemn condoms for anything other than their accepted shortcomings?

	12-03-2004 06:45									#257
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quote: people who make pledges are just fooling their parents so they can go drink beer and **** on the weekends.

Some do, many don't.

Some even manage to wait until marriage, even in this day and age.

	12-03-2004 06:46									#258
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Ben, you argue that it SHOULD be that way but it isnt. Youre idealistic but misguided

	12-03-2004 06:48									#259
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Look at it from my perspective.

Just because we go in opposite directions, does not mean I am misguided.

Idealistic, I'm guilty as charged.

	12-03-2004 07:07									#260
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quote: quote: Again, the ovulation method deals with that. Read the link more carefully. no, ben, the article that i'm referring to suggests that some women may ovulate more than once during a menstrual cycle.

i'm not sure about the details, but i'm trying to find the article.

	12-03-2004 07:42									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Actually, all the tests done on Billings give about a 99% success rate, higher than the 'ideal case' purported by Planned Parenthood. If one is to accept the figures of the condom advocates as accurate for condoms, one ought to also accept the numbers given by the Billings folks for their method.

The Billings site mentions something about a window after 'peak' fertily period which

quote: post-ovulation method

may be referring to. PP gave this method a 1% failure rate, in the ideal.

And most of the sites I saw were pro-christian sites, which IMHO lowers the probability of receiving accurate info. I'll accept a 1-3% ideal failure rate, but if you're thinking it's reality based then I've got some New Jersey swampland you might be interested in.

quote: Theben, youre going to pull him out of the beniverse

I doubt it. btw, you could show more decorum towards him.

	12-03-2004 07:53									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So I consider STD transmission to be irrelevent to the Billings method, because they assume a monogamous relationship.

You make a lot of assumptions in the Benaverse, that just don't translate to real world attitude and behavior.

The question I think you have to ask yourself, Ben, is how realistic any concept you have of assuming that people will be monogamous will actually translate into the real world?

People WANT to have sex. Casual. Monogamous. Gay. Anal. Dog... any damn way that you can imagine and that they can get it.

Its the sexual imperitive. Built into the human genome.

You are trying to argue that the human race should break from this imperitive.

How do you change this behavior? Essentially, the likelihood of this genetic imperitive being changed in 100% of cases approaches zero.

Abstenance does little to nothing for this, since... it obviously doesn't work at preventing or delaying sex, and when sex happens its generally unprotected.

Its a failure, Ben.

Any method which assumes that a couple got into monogamous relationship... and doesn't require protection, might be well and good, but its not a solution for the foundational problems of young pregnancy, or STD transmission at any age...

Say one of the partners in this monogamous relationship isn't so monogamous, and has unprotected sex (likely since they wouldn't be familiar with, or used to protected sex) with an infected partner. Then the other partner would get infected for sure... because they'd be continuing with this unprotected sex.

You're saying that in the Benaverse this could work.

I'm saying in the real world, it will never work, because...

People. Want. Sex.

	12-03-2004 08:57									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Look at it from my perspective. Just because we go in opposite directions, does not mean I am misguided. Idealistic, I'm guilty as charged.

from your perspective...

you want people to make good decisions that put them right with god.

you also want people to adhere to a method that is right with your religion.

thats what im seeing.

am i wrong

	12-03-2004 09:00									#264
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Ben, people should definitely have sex before they are married.

You can't tell if its going to work until you sample the goods and she does too. What's the point of committing yourself to a sexual disaster.

	12-03-2004 12:35									#265
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quote: I'll accept a 1-3% ideal failure rate, but if you're thinking it's reality based then I've got some New Jersey swampland you might be interested in.

Still a fair deal for my Brooklyn Bridge which I'm trying to unload. After all, you did cite Planned Parenthood, which has about as much authority on Natural Family Planning, as Ann Coulter would have with the Anti-Defamation league.

	12-03-2004 12:38									#266
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quote: You can't tell if its going to work until you sample the goods and she does too. What's the point of committing yourself to a sexual disaster.

You make my girlfriend sound like a hunk of fine cheese, that one would nibble on.

I'm sure we'll have time to work these sorts of things out, given that we don't need to worry about privacy.

	12-03-2004 12:40									#267
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quote: you want people to make good decisions that put them right with god.

True.

quote: you also want people to adhere to a method that is right with your religion.

Nope. Mennonites are Protestant, and do not have any restrictions on barrier methods of birth control.

	12-03-2004 13:05									#268
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quote: Consequential. The act is fun and that is all you can know.

Sure, you can know that you risk catching an std, or conceiving a baby.

If you end up with either you will know which act caused that outcome.

quote: Though there are problems in terms of effect on the woman of abortion, those are environmental so we can ignore them in this scenario.

Eh. A child should be killed so you can avoid the consequences of intercourse? No dice, whaleboy.

quote: By eliminating those consequences, you get the benefits of sex with no problems!

Sure. Even with protection, the risks remain.

quote: Same goes for everything. Using that logic, I cannot publish a book because the methods of paper production. Nihilism seems to imply that balance in any case.

Clever. Very clever, Whaleboy.

All actions have consequences.

However, I would say that if an action has foreseeable negative consequences, that one ought not to pursue the course of action, unless one can make the case for the good produced by the action would outweigh the bad.

Now, there are many ways looking at this, depending on your theory of the good.

Since you hate Kant, I'll take him up.

One should act as if your action, were to become a universal maxim.

Now, suppose one were to say that one should engage in premarital intercourse, what could we anticipate, if everyone engaged in the action?

First of all, we would see a rampant spread of both stds, and unplanned pregnancies.

While the latter is not negative, per se, the former would be.

quote: Furthermore in the absense of altruism (egoism shows it to be a fallacy),

No, altruism can have selfish benefits, assuming that a reputation for altruism encourages the assistance of others.

quote: Assuming contraceptives and abortion eliminate personal consequences,

Neither assumption holds water.

quote: the benefits of sex outweigh the problems caused to society and thus back at them by their own actions.

Again, if everyone were to engage in premarital intercourse, one would have to deal with many children, as well as stds, both of which become a burden on the state.

quote: Sex w/o birth control = beneficial but possible consequences outweigh to produce value of 0

Health consequences to women on the pill need to be considered.

quote: Abstinance = Sexual value of 0

Positive benefits of lack of std infection, plus formation of relationships.

quote: Sex is part of the human condition (I would argue that it is the foundation for the human condition but again going off at a tangent), therefore sexual value of >0 is beneficial to human.

Again, not everyone has this drive. Is it beneficial to a priest to have a positive value?

quote: I dare say sexual value is more important than religious value,

False dichotomy. Intercourse in marriage satisfies both desires.

Not only do you need to show that intercourse is positive, you have to make the comparision between premarital, and marital intercourse.

I would suggest the latter would be more beneficial than the former.

	12-03-2004 13:12									#269
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quote: The question I think you have to ask yourself, Ben, is how realistic any concept you have of assuming that people will be monogamous will actually translate into the real world?

It can be done, ergo, it is realistic.

quote: People WANT to have sex. Casual. Monogamous. Gay. Anal. Dog... any damn way that you can imagine and that they can get it.

So why are you posting here right now?

quote: Its the sexual imperitive. Built into the human genome.

Genes do not determine behavior. One can always choose to restrain the urge, otherwise, we would have no cause to arrest rapists, as they would simply fulfill their imperative.

quote: You are trying to argue that the human race should break from this imperitive.

For a time, yes. There is a time and place for intercourse.

quote: How do you change this behavior? Essentially, the likelihood of this genetic imperitive being changed in 100% of cases approaches zero.

Again, my rapist case, plus, not everyone has intercourse, ergo, genes cannot determine behavior.

quote: Abstenance does little to nothing for this, since... it obviously doesn't work at preventing or delaying sex, and when sex happens its generally unprotected.

BAM

It does work, for some, it works better than a condom could ever hope.

	12-03-2004 13:35									#270
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quote: You can't tell if its going to work until you sample the goods and she does too. What's the point of committing yourself to a sexual disaster.

Fo shizzy!
I've heard that the cause of lots of tension in marriages, around the time of the seven year itch, is boredom in the sexual aspect of marriage. Se is a very important part of marriage, just as important, as condoms, and aids testing!