15-03-2004 03:08									#31
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Is a complete withdrawal from Iraq (what the socialists were supporting) the solution?

	15-03-2004 03:09									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel So paiktis, do you think that Al Qaeda attacked Spain to avenge Iraq? I think it was the PP stupid "it's ETA" tactic that led to their demise in the elections. It was an obvious lie.

And yet there is convincing evidence for both sides... so no, it's not obvious that it's a lie. It's not even necessarily true.

	15-03-2004 03:09									#33
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Anzar and his ilk are responsible for what happened in Madrid. It is obvious, that his attempts to peg it on ETA were trying to turn the writing on the wall to braille.

Spain rejected the politicians that rejected their wishes to stay out of the Iraq war.

Good Job Spanish voter.

	15-03-2004 03:16									#34
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YAY!!!

	15-03-2004 03:18									#35
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Yeeha, viva España !!


Hmm, let's see the list...

1. Aznar

2. Bush

3. Blair

To be continued...

	15-03-2004 03:23									#36
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Socialist claim victory in Spain Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Al Qaeda influenced the US political landscape, it influenced your laws, and it influenced your behavior. So I guess one could say Al Qaeda triumphed over the United States?

I am afraid that this is truer than you think. The restrictions on freedom that have been implemented and that are being discussed can be nothing short of an al-qaida victory. Additionally, in Spain, the nearness of these attacks to the elections and the swing in public opinion it apparently caused is of utmost concern.

I still support the war in Iraq on the basis of limiting terrorism. The reasons are that the face of the Middle East must change in order for terrorism to be ultimately defeated. If (Big IF) democracy can take hold in that region then it will help difuse the causes of terrorism and radical fundamentalism.

This war on terror is quite real. Civilization scored a victory in Afghanistan. It took a chance in Iraq (which hopefully will end up being successful). Civilization lost battles with 9/11, the patriot act, the fracturing of the western alliance, the Madrid bombings, and now the Spanish elections (I am not saying that the socialists are unfit, just that their victory was a result of successful terrorism).

It IS all related. The greatest terrorist victory is the complacency that so many are showing and that has been demonstrated in this thread.

	15-03-2004 03:23									#37
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Don't be so rude, Menlas, I think we may spare Blair (mainly because the Conservative Party would do the same or even more).

	15-03-2004 03:26									#38
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I am afraid that this is truer than you think. The restrictions on freedom that have been implemented and that are being discussed can be nothing short of an al-qaida victory. Additionally, in Spain, the nearness of these attacks to the elections and the swing in public opinion it apparently caused is of utmost concern. I still support the war in Iraq on the basis of limiting terrorism. The reasons are that the face of the Middle East must change in order for terrorism to be ultimately defeated. If (Big IF) democracy can take hold in that region then it will help difuse the causes of terrorism and radical fundamentalism. This war on terror is quite real. Civilization scored a victory in Afghanistan. It took a chance in Iraq (which hopefully will end up being successful). Civilization lost battles with 9/11, the patriot act, the fracturing of the western alliance, the Madrid bombings, and now the Spanish elections (I am not saying that the socialists are unfit, just that their victory was a result of successful terrorism). It IS all related. The greatest terrorist victory is the complacency that so many are showing and that has been demonstrated in this thread.

Apparently, the majority of the people of Spain do not feel this way. And you are right, it is related, and Iraq was a deception, which the Spanish people saw through.

If only America weren't bombarded with it's own war loving propaganda all the time. It seems a vast majority of the world knows the real situation.

	15-03-2004 03:30									#39
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In a side note, Putin wins in Russia.

	15-03-2004 03:31									#40
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quote: Originally posted by jasev Don't be so rude, Menlas, I think we may spare Blair (mainly because the Conservative Party would do the same or even more).

Yeah, I agree . Blair is probably far to be the worse, and I don't really dislike him, except about his positions on Irak's war. Otherwise, he's not a bad PM.

	15-03-2004 03:31									#41
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On the one hand, it's very good that the "anti-war" party triumphed...on the other, it's a bit too late, and while it's certainly a victory for the PSOE, they will have to make coalitions in order to rule...and in any case, let's wait and see what are their first concrete actions.

For example, economically-wise, some Spaniards elsewhere seem to be concerned that the PSOE will increase social spending without having enough resources to back it up (and won't even consider tax increases...at least not at first) and it may lead to inflation and unemployment (don't shoot the messanger, k?).

	15-03-2004 03:31									#42
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quote: and now the Spanish elections (I am not saying that the socialists are unfit, just that their victory was a result of successful terrorism).

I don't think so. The PSOE won not because of Al-Queda but because of the pathetic attemps by the PP to blame ETA when they couldn't know it (and later, when they really knew ETA had no relationship).

	15-03-2004 03:32									#43
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega Apparently, the majority of the people of Spain do not feel this way.

The point is that the majority polled differently before the attack. The nearness to the elections of the attack allowed no time for public opinion to stabilize. This was clearly a reactionary vote. If you had put Bush up for re-election a week after 9/11 then he would have gotten 90% of the vote. Upon further reflection, it doesn't appear that will be the result, now does it?

	15-03-2004 03:34									#44
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quote: The point is that the majority polled differently before the attack. The nearness to the elections of the attack allowed no time for public opinion to stabilize.

Let me say a thing. Less than a year ago, we had local elections in all the cities of Spain. PSOE received more votes than PP.

	15-03-2004 03:35									#45
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I just spoke with two PP voters who in this election voted to socialist because the way the goverment handled the information in the last three days.

	15-03-2004 03:35									#46
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO The point is that the majority polled differently before the attack. The nearness to the elections of the attack allowed no time for public opinion to stabilize. This was clearly a reactionary vote. If you had put Bush up for re-election a week after 9/11 then he would have gotten 90% of the vote. Upon further reflection, it doesn't appear that will be the result, now does it?

All that proves is that the Spanish electorate is less easily duped than the American electorate.

	15-03-2004 03:35									#47
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quote: Originally posted by jasev I don't think so. The PSOE won not because of Al-Queda but because of the pathetic attemps by the PP to blame ETA when they couldn't know it (and later, when they really knew ETA had no relationship).

While this is indeed a different problem, it does speak to the reactionary nature of events shortly after a terrorist attack. Surely this type of thing entered into al-qaida's planning.

	15-03-2004 03:36									#48
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quote: This was clearly a reactionary vote. If you had put Bush up for re-election a week after 9/11 then he would have gotten 90% of the vote. Upon further reflection, it doesn't appear that will be the result, now does it?

Maybe, but after an attack, usually the reaction is FOR the government, not AGAINST it, isn't it?

	15-03-2004 03:36									#49
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quote: Originally posted by joncha All that proves is that the Spanish electorate is less easily duped than the American electorate.

uh...right.

	15-03-2004 03:38									#50
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Both the American people and the Spanish people were sold a cynical line by their governments after suffering horrible attacks by terrorists. The American electorate, by and large, bought the line. The Spanish voters did not.

	15-03-2004 03:39									#51
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega Anzar and his ilk are responsible for what happened in Madrid.

I think you should inform the Spanish police, security services and coroners that you have knowledge that a cabal of Spanish conservative politicians planted and set off the bombs.

It will certainly come as news to the rest of the world too.

	15-03-2004 03:39									#52
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quote: Originally posted by jasev Maybe, but after an attack, usually the reaction is FOR the government, not AGAINST it, isn't it?

Yes, unless the government is seen as causing the attack. With over 90% public opinion against Iraq, I can easily see the government getting the blame initially. With further consideration, reasonable people would realize that the action the government took (weather right or wrong) was to ultimately protect the citizens in the long run.

	15-03-2004 03:42									#53
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quote: Both the American people and the Spanish people were sold a cynical line by their governments after suffering horrible attacks by terrorists. The American electorate, by and large, bought the line. The Spanish voters did not.

But I think the spanish government handled it awfully. If they had said "There are reasons to think that islamic terrorists can be behind the attacks, and this is a proof that our strategy was right: war against terrorism", they would have lost votes. But denying it, lying to the people, pressing the national and international press... the citizenship discovered the lie and they couldn't resist a lie about 200 deaths.

	15-03-2004 03:43									#54
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Both the American people and the Spanish people were sold a cynical line by their governments after suffering horrible attacks by terrorists. The American electorate, by and large, bought the line. The Spanish voters did not.

Don't be so naive. The goal of al-Qaida is universal Islamic Fundamentalist rule. What could eithier government say that could make that more cynical. I would agree that Americans were motivated to action (that is our way afterall). But I do not think that the Spanish people don't get the importance of what is going on.

	15-03-2004 03:44									#55
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quote: Originally posted by jasev But I think the spanish government handled it awfully. If they had said "There are reasons to think that islamic terrorists can be behind the attacks, and this is a proof that our strategy was right: war against terrorism", they would have lost votes. But denying it, lying to the people, pressing the national and international press... the citizenship discovered the lie and they couldn't resist a lie about 200 deaths.

A terrible mistake by the government. Totally unnecessary.

	15-03-2004 03:46									#56
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I am afraid that this is truer than you think. The restrictions on freedom that have been implemented and that are being discussed can be nothing short of an al-qaida victory.

If you truly think this is the case, I hope you will fight this with all your might.

quote: I still support the war in Iraq on the basis of limiting terrorism. The reasons are that the face of the Middle East must change in order for terrorism to be ultimately defeated. If (Big IF) democracy can take hold in that region then it will help difuse the causes of terrorism and radical fundamentalism.

The real big question is if democracy can take hold in the middle-east by the use of Force. Many who oppose the war against Iraq claim this cannot be so.

The attacks in Spain do point out that limiting terrorism has NOT been a result from the campaign against Iraq. Offcourse this message has allready been plain if you consider the situation in Iraq itself.

quote: This war on terror is quite real. Civilization scored a victory in Afghanistan. It took a chance in Iraq (which hopefully will end up being successful).

The latter is NOT a sign of Civilization, whatever that may exactly be

quote: Civilization lost battles with 9/11, the patriot act, the fracturing of the western alliance, the Madrid bombings, and now the Spanish elections (I am not saying that the socialists are unfit, just that their victory was a result of successful terrorism).

Dismissing the election results in Spain as being unCivilized is quite a big thing to say. In fact it shows great contempt for people who do have made a choice
in what kind of society they wish to live, and who do willingly choose the goverment they want.

If election results don't fit your agenda, and if you then call the electorate uncivilized or perhaps even undemocratic, then I really cannot fathom what you eleive to be civilized or a democracy, that you so eagerly wish to get established in the middle-east.

	15-03-2004 03:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Don't be so naive. The goal of al-Qaida is universal Islamic Fundamentalist rule. What could eithier government say that could make that more cynical. I would agree that Americans were motivated to action (that is our way afterall). But I do not think that the Spanish people don't get the importance of what is going on.

...and Bush manipulated this motivation to action into forwarding his own agenda. That is a cynical strategy. The PP blamed ETA, first without proof, then against all proof because it supporting their agenda. That is another cynical strategy. In the US situation, the American people chose (wrongly, IMO) to trust their government. The Spanish people used a little bit more critical thinking, and did not.

	15-03-2004 03:48									#58
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If we buy the oft repeated "AQ hates us for our freedom", then any time a people get to elect their new leaders freely and a peaceful transfer of power occurs, AQ has lost. Will now the people who repeat this most often stop saying it? Or do they trully believe it?

Plato: those that sold the war on Iraq sold it a a short term action-an immidiate cure to an immidiate problem -remmber all the flack given to Dean for saying we werew not a lick safer having caught Saddam? Well, to the people of Spain, this has come to shown true- Iraq is a very long term part of the possible solution to the war on terror, which will not yield benefits for at leasta decade in that regard. It was not sold that way though-and those that sold the war on false premises should see the consequences of their claims.

	15-03-2004 03:49									#59
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quote: Dismissing the election results in Spain as being unCivilized is quite a big thing to say. In fact it shows great contempt for people who do have made a choice in what kind of society they wish to live, and who do willingly choose the goverment they want

I want to say that, in this elections, a 77% of the registered citizens have voted. Let me point that in Spain every citizen is automatically registered at his 18th birthday.

	15-03-2004 03:50									#60
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Btw, the PP seems to have done better (102) than the PSOE (81) in the Senate elections, with 61.5% of the results in.