15-03-2004 03:51									#61
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This is a definite victory for Al-Qaeda. Their terror attack has succeded at getting a government much less friendly to the US and removed a key ally.

	15-03-2004 03:54									#62
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quote: This is a definite victory for Al-Qaeda. Their terror attack has succeded at getting a government much less friendly to the US and removed a key ally.

And that is an insult to the spanish people.

	15-03-2004 03:54									#63
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That was very insulting.

	15-03-2004 03:55									#64
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But I expected no better from a supporter of BUSH.

	15-03-2004 03:55									#65
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And also a big

	15-03-2004 03:57									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If we buy the oft repeated "AQ hates us for our freedom", then any time a people get to elect their new leaders freely and a peaceful transfer of power occurs, AQ has lost. Will now the people who repeat this most often stop saying it? Or do they trully believe it?

Hey Gepap! Good to see you join this debate.

I am decrying the free choice of people to elect their government. It does not matter if it is socialist or conservative as long as it is freely elected. The problem I have is the undue influence that a terrorist attack may have had on this election. With polls showing the government leading a week ago and now the vote going the other way then one has to raise the question about this being a possible influence. If it was, then was this election truly free? This is my point.

quote: Plato: those that sold the war on Iraq sold it a a short term action-an immidiate cure to an immidiate problem -remmber all the flack given to Dean for saying we werew not a lick safer having caught Saddam? Well, to the people of Spain, this has come to shown true- Iraq is a very long term part of the possible solution to the war on terror, which will not yield benefits for at leasta decade in that regard. It was not sold that way though-and those that sold the war on false premises should see the consequences of their claims.

While I did believe the WMD bullsh1t, I hope that you remember that my main argument was changing the power structures in the ME. This I believe is essential. I think that 10 years may be about right, but where would the ME be in 10 years if its course had continued unchecked. Terrorism did not spring up overnight. It has been coming for 30 to 50 years. Its defeat may well take as long. There does, however, have to be a first step. Hopefully we have taken the right ones. I believe that we have wrt Afghanistan and Iraq, but truly, only time will tell.

	15-03-2004 03:58									#67
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quote: Originally posted by jasev And that is an insult to the spanish people.

How? How is implying that voters might be affected by current events an insult? (Personally, I'm not sure even that is true, in general )

	15-03-2004 03:58									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi This is a definite victory for Al-Qaeda. Their terror attack has succeded at getting a government much less friendly to the US and removed a key ally.

Oh please.

What, the Spanish Socialists are going to pull out of NATO next I suppose? The same way Tony Blair's Socialists did. The same way Australia's Labour Party broke up the Anzus Pact when it was elected under Bob Hawke.

Oh, except neither of the last two things happened.


I can't wait for the lunatic fringe theorists telling us how Osama bin Laden bankrolls the Socialists secretly.

	15-03-2004 04:00									#69
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Dismissing the election results in Spain as being unCivilized is quite a big thing to say. In fact it shows great contempt for people who do have made a choice in what kind of society they wish to live, and who do willingly choose the goverment they want. If election results don't fit your agenda, and if you then call the electorate uncivilized or perhaps even undemocratic, then I really cannot fathom what you eleive to be civilized or a democracy, that you so eagerly wish to get established in the middle-east.

This is ridiculous. I never dismissed them in any way shape or form. They are fully valid and the will of the Spanish people. I support that. What I call into question is the possible reactionary nature of the vote that could have been caused by a terror attack. If this is the case, then I stand by my statement of an al-Qaida victory.

	15-03-2004 04:00									#70
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I can't wait for the lunatic fringe theorists telling us how Osama bin Laden bankrolls the Socialists secretly.

You mean he doesn't? Damn, I was really looking forward to that cheque.

	15-03-2004 04:02									#71
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quote: With polls showing the government leading a week ago and now the vote going the other way then one has to raise the question about this being a possible influence. If it was, then was this election truly free? This is my point.

The government tried to hide who was responsible for the bombings. The people, seeing that the government did this, removes that government from power. The people institute a government in place of the one that lied.

How the **** is that not free?

	15-03-2004 04:02									#72
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I will explain a thing: PSOE will NOT withdraw Spain from the alliance. After this attack, a withdrawal from Iraq could be seen (should be seen) as a victory of the terrorists, so no european government can do that.

But... Spain will turn to France and Germany, "the old Europe" that we never should have left. If somebody in the US thinks that France and Germany aren't US allies, is wrong. It's just they have their own opinions and don't mind to express them. Just like 90% (just an opinion poll, but it's the best that we have) of the spanish population did last year when we invaded Iraq.

	15-03-2004 04:02									#73
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The Spanish result is actually a huge victory for the battle against terrorism. For a safer (bush free) world and for the European Union. I hear the socialists are much more pro Europe than their predecessors.
How this unconviences the bush regime leaves me completely impassive.

	15-03-2004 04:03									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi This is a definite victory for Al-Qaeda. Their terror attack has succeded at getting a government much less friendly to the US and removed a key ally.

Only if you beleive the 'who is not with us is against us' BS, you could possibly think this is an al-Qaeda victory.

And you might finally start to rethink your key-ally wasn't so KEY, as the spanish people have told the US a year ago with the massive demonstrations in the streets of Madrid (yes, the very same streets that you have seen over the last couple of days)

	15-03-2004 04:05									#75
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quote: Originally posted by joncha You mean he doesn't? Damn, I was really looking forward to that cheque.

Life hasn't been the same since the Ba'athist contributions to my bank account dried up. I was hoping Osama might take up the slack, but I haven't managed to 'influence' the Australian people sufficiently yet.

Of course it will be easier when Labour is elected, because Australia will become an anti-American Islamic Socialist one party state, as always happens when socialist governments are sworn in around the world.

Interesting isn't it, how Bush and the Republicans= America in some people's minds?

	15-03-2004 04:07									#76
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous The government tried to hide who was responsible for the bombings. The people, seeing that the government did this, removes that government from power. The people institute a government in place of the one that lied. How the **** is that not free?

If this indeed the case, the I have no problem with it. You simply misunderstand the point I am trying to make. Terrorism, by its very definition, inspires reactionary choices. If it was this phenomenon that changed the vote, then there is a problem. If it is as simple as you imply, then I don't see a problem. Logic tells me that it is not so simple a solution however.

	15-03-2004 04:07									#77
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I didn't know that Spain was a so vital ally of the US. It makes me proud that a 40-million people country can be so valuable.

Well, I know we are smarter, cuter and stronger than the other europeans but....

(j/k please don't shoot me )

	15-03-2004 04:07									#78
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And in some people's minds, Communists still = Russia

	15-03-2004 04:09									#79
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Of course the election of the socialists was a defeat for democracy. The US government is democratic, therefore anything against it is against democracy and should be erradicated by force.

I believe we should start a seach in the socialist party for weapons of mass destruction.

	15-03-2004 04:09									#80
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quote: Originally posted by jasev I didn't know that Spain was a so vital ally of the US. It makes me proud that a 40-million people country can be so valuable.

They are and hopefully will remain so. This alliance is far bigger than the Iraq issue.

	15-03-2004 04:10									#81
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quote: If this indeed the case, the I have no problem with it. You simply misunderstand the point I am trying to make. Terrorism, by its very definition, inspires reactionary choices. If it was this phenomenon that changed the vote, then there is a problem. If it is as simple as you imply, then I don't see a problem. Logic tells me that it is not so simple a solution however.

¿Could we argue that the victory of the republicans in the congress elections (2002?) was a result of 9/11?

	15-03-2004 04:12									#82
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Judging by the thinking in some of these posts, the election of Labour in Great Britain after the Second World War, was clearly a pyrrhic victory for Nazism.

Oh, and the election of Thatcher after the Falklands' War clearly a triumph for South American military dictatorships- or the I.R.A. .

I suppose Eisenhower's election was a victory for Stalin too. Or Mao. Or both.

It couldn't possibly be that as in most general elections, domestic issues occupy the minds of voters the most.

You know, job security, the economy, welfare, education, the health system.

	15-03-2004 04:13									#83
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quote: Originally posted by jasev ¿Could we argue that the victory of the republicans in the congress elections (2002?) was a result of 9/11?

I don't think so. That was 14 months after the attack. It is possible that the influence of the attack may have caused a more conservative lean in the elections, but it is not the immediate reactionary type feeling that was in place immediately post 9/11.

	15-03-2004 04:14									#84
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO This is ridiculous. I never dismissed them in any way shape or form. They are fully valid and the will of the Spanish people. I support that. What I call into question is the possible reactionary nature of the vote that could have been caused by a terror attack. If this is the case, then I stand by my statement of an al-Qaida victory.

oh, good. You had me worried for a minute

	15-03-2004 04:15									#85
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Judging by the thinking in some of these posts, the election of Labour in Great Britain after the Second World War, was clearly a pyrrhic victory for Nazism. Oh, and the election of Thatcher after the Falklands' War clearly a triumph for South American military dictatorships- or the I.R.A. . I suppose Eisenhower's election was a victory for Stalin too. Or Mao. Or both.

Please explain a bit further how you think that this line of postulation would lead to the conclusions you draw. I am really curious as to the corelations that you are drawing to gain these conclusions. (Unless of course that was just a troll )

	15-03-2004 04:16									#86
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A clear message to Bush, who must be quaking in his boots. Here's hoping the Spanish Government withdraws from Iraq.

	15-03-2004 04:16									#87
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That's just crazy-talk, Molly Bloom. Don't you know it's all just a Zionist Islamic conspiracy?

	15-03-2004 04:17									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon A clear message to Bush, who must be quaking in his boots. Here's hoping the Spanish Government withdraws from Iraq.

Say we all left. Then what, genius?

	15-03-2004 04:20									#89
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Say we all left. Then what, genius?

Say y'all never messed around there in the first place. Would we even be dealing with this mess now?

	15-03-2004 04:21									#90
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quote: Say we all left. Then what, genius?

You're right. We have commited a huge mistake in Iraq, now we can't leave until we repair it. But I think that the UN should take charge.