16-03-2004 00:20									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue If, as in Spain, a terrorist attack happened only a short time before a national election, would it affect your voting behaviour?

It might. If the leader responded like a complete douchebag (e.g., throwing everybody into a panic or starting a witch hunt) then I'd be less inclined to vote for him/her. On the flipside, if the leader responded exceptionally well then I'd be more inclined to vote for him/her.

If the leader's incompetence was partially to blame for the attack (e.g., if the leader had sent the entire police force on vacation the day before the attack), then I'd be less inclined to vote for him/her. However, if the terrorists had targeted my nation as a result of policies enacted by the leader with which I was in agreement, then I don't see how this could affect my voting behavior any -- I mean, who cares if a bunch of murderers disagree with the leader's policies?

	16-03-2004 00:22									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed of course, the way the bush camp will spin it is that kerry the anti-military anti-intelligence vietnam veteran will just allow conditions that help terrorist attacks arise in the us.

Yup. That is how it is. He will cut back the intelligence services so much as he has proved with his past voting record, and terrorists will just flood the country.

	16-03-2004 00:23									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed of course, the way the bush camp will spin it is that kerry the anti-military anti-intelligence vietnam veteran will just allow conditions that help terrorist attacks arise in the us.

Agreed. Time for Kerry to spin this as Bush wasting money on bogus missle defense when the enemy is a backpack left in the subway.

	16-03-2004 00:29									#34
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Your point? So if Al Qaida will take credit for a Bush victory in November, does that mean you won't vote for Bush? The terrorists win when you vote based on their perceptions.

Templar, nice spin.

However, I fully expect an al Qaeda attack on the US just prior to elections. If Kerry wins, al Qaeda will take the credit. The will not take credit, but will view as a defeat, the reelection of George Bush.

	16-03-2004 00:32									#35
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I would change my vote if my party mishandled the issue very badly.

	16-03-2004 00:33									#36
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You know, Che, absolutely no one believes that Kerry is serious about a war on terror when he openly talks about repealing the Patriot Act.

	16-03-2004 00:34									#37
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Agreed. Time for Kerry to spin this as Bush wasting money on bogus missle defense when the enemy is a backpack left in the subway.

Time for Kerry to get serious himself. He must explain why he wanted to gut our intelligence services after the first al Qaeda attack on the World Trade Center and why he is calling for repeal of the Patriot Act.

	16-03-2004 00:35									#38
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and do you think that the spin for both sides will actually change things at all?

i personally don't. the election is contentious enough as it is, with battle lines already drawn and core supporters already set. the vast middle is already disgusted with both sides, and you can probably expect a pretty equal division if nothing untoward is revealed about either candidate, bombing or no bombing.

you'll have rightists saying kerry will have more of the same.
you'll have leftists saying bush will have more of the same.

and neither of them will have brains enough to stfu and deal with the mess without politicizing it for their own ends.

	16-03-2004 00:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The[y] will not take credit, but will view as a defeat, the reelection of George Bush.

Sure they will. I'm sure Al Qaida would prefer that we have incompetent leadership that is both ineffective at fighting terrorists and alientates the rest of the world. Perfect for divide and conquer.

They could spin it any number of ways. They could say they beat free institutions and now the "crusaders" rush to destroy their own freedoms with things like the patriot act.

	16-03-2004 00:41									#40
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I would if my party messed things up even more.

Templar: He's trolling you. Stop biting

	16-03-2004 00:42									#41
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honestly, i don't think al-qaida really gives a ****ing hoot about which americans are which.

whether bush or kerry is elected, they will still hate us, and they will still attack us.

after all, we're americans.

	16-03-2004 00:42									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ned You know, Che, absolutely no one believes that Kerry is serious about a war on terror when he openly talks about repealing the Patriot Act.

Yeah, but Kerry does prove his commitment to democratic institutions when he talks about letting the sunset provisions take effect.

Moreover, I don't see the Patriot Act as any great aid in fighting terrorists. Most of its provisions were originally requested by the DOJ for the war on drugs. Terrorism and the name "Patriot" were just the Trojan horse to get this assault on freedom through the Congress.

	16-03-2004 00:46									#43
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Sure they will. I'm sure Al Qaida would prefer that we have incompetent leadership that is both ineffective at fighting terrorists and alientates the rest of the world. Perfect for divide and conquer. They could spin it any number of ways. They could say they beat free institutions and now the "crusaders" rush to destroy their own freedoms with things like the patriot act.

	16-03-2004 01:05									#44
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar The terrorist attack alone is meaningless ... If Bloomberg came out and said "Bully for ELF" THAT might effect my vote.

Then it wouldn't be meaningless.

	16-03-2004 01:34									#45
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Blatant troll, fez-bot.

Cmon, like guevera wasnt trolling?


Lets see, if there was a terror attack in the US, and Bush, in a desperate attempt to not talk about Al Qaeeda, said with certainty it was say, Right wing militias, in a transparent attempt to change the subject, i suspect that would sway me against Bush.

If, OTOH, Al qaeeda delivered a video saying that this latest attack was punishment for US policy X, pursued by Bush, it would not sway me against Bush. It wouldnt sway me FOR Bush based on simple rallying around the leader. Since I prefer Kerry on domestic issues, and Bush on the WOT, it might lead me to lean more toward Bush, though Id be wary of doing that.

At this point the bombing and election in Spain is factoring into my thinking. It places the election of Kerry into a different context. Already I see people posting things like, today Aznar, then Bush, then Blair. In the context of the Spanish election, a Kerry win will be seen in many quarters as a part of a trend of rejection of all the leaders who supported the invasion of Iraq, and that would change it for me. I also fear it might impact John Kerry's judgement - he seems in recent days to running as "the worlds" candidate against Buch. With all do respect to the world, I dont like that. Both because its objectionable in principle, and because the "world opinions" Kerry seems to be referring to (presumably not Tony Blair, Jalal Talabani, or Ehud Barak) are ones that I beleive are mistaken on the key issues of the time. If THAT is going to be the Kerry candidacy, I will have a hard time voting for him. Of course I await his VP pick.

	16-03-2004 01:37									#46
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Yeah, but Kerry does prove his commitment to democratic institutions when he talks about letting the sunset provisions take effect. Moreover, I don't see the Patriot Act as any great aid in fighting terrorists. Most of its provisions were originally requested by the DOJ for the war on drugs. Terrorism and the name "Patriot" were just the Trojan horse to get this assault on freedom through the Congress.

so why on his website does Kerry make reference to Patriot act provisions hed keep, and in listing the onces hed drop mainly refer to minor ones.

	16-03-2004 02:24									#47
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If Aznar, Blair and Bush are all removed from their offices on this issue, the terrorists will have won. So for this I hope Bush gets another term, and Blair too.

Hopefully by then the terrorist threat will be diminished.

	16-03-2004 02:44									#48
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Well the South Koreans are still sending troops, and we still have trusty Berlusconi in office. He sent 5,000 troops I think it was to Iraq.

I am just so pissed that there are so many idiots in my country that would give Al Qaeda a victory like this.

Last edited by Giancarlo on 16-03-2004 at 02:52

	16-03-2004 02:55									#49
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It would probably happen in the UK too, so many weak-willed liberals.

	16-03-2004 02:59									#50
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Apparently not, since my voting preference hasn't changed since Sept. 11.

	16-03-2004 03:00									#51
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If Blair is replaced by Howard nothing will really change, the Tories supported the war in Iraq and support the actions against terrorism. I fail to see any real difference in the UK's actions unless the Lib Dems perform a virtual coup d'etat.

	16-03-2004 03:01									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue If Aznar, Blair and Bush are all removed from their offices on this issue, the terrorists will have won. So for this I hope Bush gets another term, and Blair too.

Won? I doubt the intent of the terrorists is to see that these three were kicked out of office. Their goals are little more far-reaching than that.

Bush's Iraq escapade has made things easier for AQ by taking off the pressure where it's needed most. And the $billions spent on it could have been spent on hunting down AQ. Nah, I think Bush is looking like the terrorists' best friend.

	16-03-2004 03:07									#53
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A terrorist attack is unlikely to change my vote during first round, since it's almost a given that I will vote for my party.

OTOH, it can affect my voting behaviour during the runoff, if the "less bad" party shows up as being complete ****ers over the issue.

	16-03-2004 03:10									#54
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No, unless I die in the attack, or one of the candidates dies in the attack.

	16-03-2004 03:51									#55
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My voting pattern never changed from the day I could legally vote in local and national elections- it wasn't for sale to General Galtieri, the I.R.A., whoever was responsible for the bomb on the Lockerbie jet that killed my old classmate, or the I.N.L.A. .

The 'terrorists won because the PSOE were elected' is typically shallow reactive media spin- as simplistic as the old 'African nationalist movements were Soviet stooges' crap that used to appear in all the right wing press in the seventies and eighties and in briefings from the Reagan White House.

A two term conservative government was defeated in new elections- not exactly a rarity for a two term government of any political shade to be turfed out of office is it, in either Europe, the Americas or Asia or Australasia?

	16-03-2004 03:59									#56
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Molly bloom, the terrorists did win because they wanted to derail the conservative party.

	16-03-2004 04:10									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Molly bloom, the terrorists did win because they wanted to derail the conservative party.

And in the end, so did voters.

	16-03-2004 04:16									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Molly bloom, the terrorists did win because they wanted to derail the conservative party.

The terrorists have not won- Spanish democracy and the Spanish people showed that despite a major terrorist atrocity, elections in Spain could carry on in an orderly fashion- I tend to believe the Spanish woman who marched in solidarity in Madrid, who said I will not let them change my life.

We should not believe people like Park Avenue who seek to imply that a woman brave enough to march in public after a murderous attack on civilians, and hundreds of thousands of other ordinary Spanish people like her, were willing to risk their lives in a public demonstration of solidarity with the dead and injured, but not courageous enough to keep to their political allegiance.

In open democratic societies, the only victory for terrorists, is if society ceases to operate as a democracy and begins to arbitrarily curtail the liberties of its citizens.

	16-03-2004 04:20									#59
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no terrorist is going to make me vote for Bush...

Giancarlo... you should wear a tinfoil hat... it suits you.

It's really arrogant of you to think that Al Qaeda gives half a **** about Spanish politics. They wanted to kill... that's it. This whole "the terrorists win" bullshit really is retarded.

	16-03-2004 04:22									#60
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The terrorists won. Say goodbye to the hardline stance of Aznar. That is gone. Say goodbye to the pro-free market reforms, that is gone. And now I will say with great sadness, the economy will probably go down the tubes in the next few years.

The terrorists won because they wanted to take down a ruling party and get the country's troops out of Iraqs. Osama Bin Laden is probably cheering this defeat. This great defeat of great proportions for my country. I will truly cry every year this same weekend comes along. Not just for the atrocity committed in Madrid in which one of my friends was injured (who voted for the PP) but also the election showing the open defeat.