17-03-2004 12:25									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire If I recall correctly your aggression was deemed illegal by the Council, furthermore please show me this ‘international recognition’ of your spoils of war, the Hive does not recognize your claim to any such spoils obtained during an illegal action, nor does PEACE recognize your claims, and I would be surprised if the Drones recognizes it as well; so clearly it hardly has international recognition, in fact the opposite is true, your claim does not have international recognition.

The colony pod flew the CPU colours. It responded to CPU orders. It did not respond to PEACE government orders. So that is 3 factions at least that recognise the CP as CPU property.

quote: Second of all the CyCon was attempting to use civilians as a shield in an attempt to establish a military base within the reach of Hiverian soil.

As has been pointed out numerous times, if we wanted a base there we would have done so before giving the Hive a chance to slaughter our civilians.

quote: Also is that a threat? Should we take this as the view of all CyConians?

While I understand that comprehension is not your strong point, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and repeat myself. "I for one". How many people does "one" represent? For those of you who answered "one", you are correct.

quote: The Hive wants peace, but we will have peace on fair and equitable terms, not on your terms.

When your terms involve killing our unarmed civilians whenever you feel "threatened" by them, then that is unacceptable.

quote: The People of the Human Hive do not take well to threats; I suggest that the CyCon tone their rhetoric down if they want to remain on amiable terms.

This is amiable terms? Our civilians are being killed and you feel this is akin to sitting down with a nice cup of tea? Come back to reality - you have attacked our people and our property with no provocation and with no warning. Not even Nostradamus could have predicted CPU would be upset over this.

	17-03-2004 12:54									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns The colony pod flew the CPU colours. It responded to CPU orders. It did not respond to PEACE government orders. So that is 3 factions at least that recognise the CP as CPU property.

I hate to be a nitpick, but you've mentioned reasons, not factions

	17-03-2004 13:30									#93
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quote: This is amiable terms? Our civilians are being killed and you feel this is akin to sitting down with a nice cup of tea? Come back to reality - you have attacked our people and our property with no provocation and with no warning. Not even Nostradamus could have predicted CPU would be upset over this

No civillians were killed, as pointed out before. They were humanely freed from the mind control devices and released into the wild. We have attacked none of your people, and the only property of yours that we destroyed was a mind-control node built into the PEACE CP in question.

Nostradamus, more tea?

-Jam

	17-03-2004 13:43									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Nostradamus, more tea?

Nostradamus strikes as more of a gin sort of guy, to be honest.

	17-03-2004 13:56									#95
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Nostradamus says he prefers water

	17-03-2004 13:58									#96
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quote: Nostradamus strikes as more of a gin sort of guy, to be honest.

I think he was more of a methyl alchohol type of guy

-Jam

	17-03-2004 14:00									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I hate to be a nitpick, but you've mentioned reasons, not factions

CPU isn't a reason. It is a faction. So is PEACE.
Forgive me if I missed your point totally.


Jam, I can't quite understand how you believe missiles hitting a colony pods walls would not cause any death.
Something is amiss.


And Nostradamus smoked crack. He didn't go in for that fancy drink stuff.

	17-03-2004 14:09									#98
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Missiles, pah!

We never fired a missile, the mere THREAT of the crew's handweapons was enough to force them to turn off the mind-control device, allowing them to be quickly overpowered by the loyal PEACE citizens revenge rampage through the CP.

Skanky... I'm not sure Tass HAD a point

-Jam

	17-03-2004 14:14									#99
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Actually, I may even go out on a limb and call the Uni a faction as opposed to a reason.

	17-03-2004 14:19									#100
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I'm really confused that this is still an issue.

If the Cybernetic Consciousness is really concerned about the loss of this colony pod to Hive forces then perhaps they should threaten the Hive militarily, instead of threatening PEACE or attempting to assign blame?

	17-03-2004 14:36									#101
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Really the CyCon need to adopt an "easy come, easy go" attitude.

They stole a pod, they lost it again, everything is as it was before.

No big deal, eh? Would have been wiser never to have stolen it.

-Jam

	17-03-2004 14:48									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Would have been wiser never to have stolen it.

In fact, it was wise of CPU to obtain it.

Only to bad we didn't had time to bring it away to it's home town, Atlantis. All those people there we have to send mourning communications because their loved ones are, well, incinerated by their so called protectors.

You may continue to state that those people were only liberated (how can that be if no air transport is available), but any sound mind can imagine the destruction when missiles close in on unarmered vehicles.

	17-03-2004 14:59									#103
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They were liberated. You CyCon have still failed to penetrate our security blocks. Only the Hive have access to the reports of that operation.

Sorry, they were liberated.

-Jam

	17-03-2004 15:00									#104
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"released into the wild" - Jamski

Need I remind you that Chirons atmophere is unbreathable, thus everyone succumed to suffocation once outside the Colony Pods protective environment.

	17-03-2004 15:34									#105
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The atmosphere of Chiron has been breathable for at least the last 30 years.

At any rate, the Hive people are doing ok.

-Jam

	17-03-2004 16:13									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski The atmosphere of Chiron has been breathable for at least the last 30 years. At any rate, the Hive people are doing ok.

Yes, within the Hive holes it is breathable, as it is within any base or hab complex.

In case you forgot, xenolife wouldn't even exist anymore if the atmosphere was breathable for human life, but it is sure as hell abundant as always. Further more, there never was a planetary project to push up the oxygen content on Chiron. And before you bring up the Weather Paradigm, that is a terraform project which does not include atmospheric generators, neither is it in the hands of Hive.

	17-03-2004 16:15									#107
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I note that no-one has yet deigned to answer my question. What a surprise.

	17-03-2004 17:46									#108
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Never mind the issue of whose civilians or CP it was. We are not going to agree on this. The CPU took that CP in a war with PEACE. The Hive government refuses to acknowledge certain aspects of this war, the specifics of which have not been made clear to the CPU government. None of this is the issue at hand however.

CPU's concern is not so much the loss of a CP and the deaths or otherwise of many CPU citizens, although as members of our free Faction they are of concern. The largest concern, and the one we should focus on most importantly here, is that the Hive declared a state of Vendetta upon the CPU in order to make this attack. That is an extremely risky move, and was highly likely to escalate tensions rather than relax them. Surely the Hive, if their government is serious about wanting peace and stability, can see that such an action was incredibly premature, with not even a warning communicated to the CPU beforehand.

Time and again the CPU government is perplexed at Hive contradictory signals. Peace is wanted, but then acted against - pacts are signed but then broken without warning or discussion. I would ask that the Hive and ALL factions please try to communicate concerns they have via the proper channels before undertaking rash actions that will only cause further distrust and suspicion. I hope we never have to deal with such a frustrating situation again.

It is not a sign of weakness to admit mistakes, as certain members of the Hive may believe, but an apology for this action officially communicated to the CPU would be looked upon very favourably and would show the Hive does indeed have a strong belief in inter-faction communication and cooperation, as it seemed to show by calling a meeting of the Council. Such an apology, or even the recommencement of negotiations on the establishing of boundaries for the greater safety of BOTH factions would relieve the CPU and ease tensions to the benefit of both. The CPU is not (IMO) going to go to war over a single incident, but the danger is there where such diplomatic failures to communicate continue. I urge the Hive to think this through and to see that the only way out is together, not against.

We ain't so bad if you make your intentions and concerns known. If you had warned us the CP must go or else then there would at least have been warning, and consequently far less outrage. Let's please just chalk this up as a mistake and get back on the road to cooperation.

	17-03-2004 18:00									#109
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quote: I note that no-one has yet deigned to answer my question. What a surprise.

We don't need evidence that the colonly pod was intended to be used to found a base. This is the normal use of a CP. We call upon the CyCon to prove that they were going to use this CP for other purposes (Like what? Fishing?)

-Jam

	17-03-2004 18:17									#110
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The aspect in question is where the colony pod would have founded a base. If we were going to do so in that area, then our movement of the unit was a needless waste. If we were going to do so in an area away from where we initially acquired the CP, then movement was necessary.

So which path did we take - moving the CP or building a base in the area?

	17-03-2004 19:42									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Alow me to clarify a bit our position as Maniac put it. It seems to be incressingly apartent that the Hive is atempting to save the Pirates from elimination at the Hands of Cycon. We have noticed transfers of Credits to the Pirates and exchanges of tecnology between Hive and Pirates, not to mention the Pact between these factions.

quote: Thus we have interprited PEACE to be a quasi-vassel state of the Hive at this point. Thus when the Hive destroyed our unit it broke the CeaseFire we had with PEACE.

Umm... and again, the ceasesfire was between who again? Let me think... PEACE and CPU...

If we've simply been reduced to some 'vassal' status of the Hive, then you might as well attack the larger threat first as a 'vassal' disappearing from the map certainly isn't going to hurt the Hive much when that vassal only has one base.

quote: Think of this situation as like the Cuban Missle Crisis, PEACE being Cuba a small and weak state that is a satalite of a much larger power (HIve) which is having a spat with another larger power. If one of the SuperPowers attacks the other then it obvious that any ceasefire with a satalite state is null and void.

Um... it would... except the whole 'satalite state' thing is just in CPU's mind as PEACE is still a fully independent faction (unlike the PUT to the CyCon.)

quote: None the less now that Cycon has destroyed the PEACE Ship we feel secure and would be willing to alow PEACE to exist if we have a warming in our relations with the Hive. If so then PEACE will be alowed to resetle far to the North in the region of Fossil Field Ridge ware they will not infringe on the Cycon sphere of influence. They may even remain an active Hive alie so long as the Hive dose not station forces in their territory. It will be up to the Hive though to deside what PEACE's fate will be. Cycon will negotiate their fate with the Hive as it should be obvious to all that direct negotiations between Cycon and PEACE are rather pointless now.

It is not up to the Hive as to PEACE's fate as we are not a satelite!

	17-03-2004 19:45									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Our cease-fire with PEACE came about due to the Hive. It is no wonder then that the status of this treaty is also bound by Hive actions.

Umm... it was due to the Hive's proposal in the Council, however everything past that has been simply between PEACE and CPU.

Had PEACE known of the impending attack against the CP it would be different and CPU would clearly be justified, but we didn't know, and therefore this is between the Hive and CPU and PEACE should never have been dragged into it.

	17-03-2004 20:55									#113
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Can somebody please please point me to the source of this so-called 'evidence' proving that CPU intended to use that CP to build a base? This has been claimed numerous times, and has not been substantiated anywhere, even when this was pointed out.

I’m sorry that’s classified. You’re going to have to file an access to information request wit the Foreign Affairs Committee.

Furthermore state actions do not require evidence, only speculation. You could have used it as a base from which to launch aerial assaults on the Hive, therefore we chose to act, whether you have any such intentions remains to be seen, but in truth did not see it fit to gamble with the lives of our citizens.

	17-03-2004 21:00									#114
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quote: We dont realy care if you send more Credits to the Pirates, thats between you and them. Might I point out the hypocritical asertion that the Hive would find a Cycon base (which we never even inteded to create) at that location an anacceptable threat when said location was equal distance from a Cycon base namely Atlantis. Seeing as your Pacted with PEACE if we had not Mind Controled the Pod it would be the HIVE who possesed the forward air base within range of us. We ofcorse had no intentions of doing this (and you have only a untenable supositon that we did) yet the Hive was most obviously sheltering and inviting the creation of a PEACE base on said location.

It need be noted that the Hive does not recognize any CyCon claims to the PEACE base of Atlantis. We did indeed intent for PEACE to establish a base on the said territory for the purposes of protecting PEACE from further CyCon aggression. I do not recall us denying this. You’re further right that we may have had a forward air base against you had PEACE build the base, well they didn’t, and nor did you, so what’s the problems? Things seem to have worked out well for both of us.

quote: You have said numerous times that you felt agitated because our war with PEACE was growing clower to your territory, why then have you activly sheltered and assisted PEACE in building bases closer to Hive territory? If the Hive had told PEACE to get out of its territory rather then invite them in then that Colony Pod would never have even been their in the first place.

I do not recall saying that, but then against I have a bad memory. We decided to shelter PEACE because the Hive will not support or allow further CyCon aggression that they may establish a hegemony. The merged with the University was enough, you shall not be allowed to take another faction.

quote: We should declare the islands in question a Nutral Zone untill such time as perminent ownership can be negotiated. No faction will move units into the area or build bases within it, this will assure long term stability in the region.

I have no objection to this.

	17-03-2004 21:06									#115
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quote: The colony pod flew the CPU colours. It responded to CPU orders. It did not respond to PEACE government orders. So that is 3 factions at least that recognise the CP as CPU property.

And at least three that do not, so we’re even.

quote: As has been pointed out numerous times, if we wanted a base there we would have done so before giving the Hive a chance to slaughter our civilians.

Well you may have just been incompetent, frankly we were not willing to take a chance.

quote: While I understand that comprehension is not your strong point, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and repeat myself. "I for one". How many people does "one" represent? For those of you who answered "one", you are correct.

Well in the CyCon who can tell what ‘one’ represents seeing as you’re all linked. Furthermore the fact that there is even such a sentiment with the CyCon makes the Hive doubt the factions overall intent on peace and friendship, we’d like the CyCon government to issue an official stance on this issue.

quote: When your terms involve killing our unarmed civilians whenever you feel "threatened" by them, then that is unacceptable.

Yes, yes it does. I’m glad we understand each other.

quote: This is amiable terms? Our civilians are being killed and you feel this is akin to sitting down with a nice cup of tea? Come back to reality - you have attacked our people and our property with no provocation and with no warning. Not even Nostradamus could have predicted CPU would be upset over this.

Well for one we do not view the as your civilians. Two we had reason to suspect that the whole ‘civilian’ thing was a front to establish a forward launch abase for aircraft capable of reaching Hive territory, so even the ‘civilian’ part is in doubt. No provocation? Well by that standard Britain attacked Germany in WWII with no provocation; aggression is provocation enough. You took the University, now you want to take PEACE, next comes the Drones and the Hive.

	17-03-2004 21:10									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns The aspect in question is where the colony pod would have founded a base. If we were going to do so in that area, then our movement of the unit was a needless waste. If we were going to do so in an area away from where we initially acquired the CP, then movement was necessary. So which path did we take - moving the CP or building a base in the area?

We didn’t recognize your claim to the colony pod at all, so frankly the point of where you would have built the base is also moot. That and we did not feel like taking a chance that you would build a forward base intended for Hive invasion.

	17-03-2004 21:17									#117
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Well ofcorse you had no Evidence of this as we weren't planing on founding a base as we have said so repetedly. Your speculations were in error (resulting in seriously erronious actions), this is the danger of acting on mere speculation and closing off proper diplomatic channels.

Is the Hive claiming to have the right to take pre-emptive military action when it mearly "speculates" that another faction "might" try to gain the ability to threaten them. This sounds distressingly familiar to a doctorine exposed by a certain shrubbery infesting my country (don't worry though we intend to prune it around november)

	17-03-2004 21:26									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Well ofcorse you had no Evidence of this as we weren't planing on founding a base as we have said so repetedly. Your speculations were in error (resulting in seriously erronious actions), this is the danger of acting on mere speculation and closing off proper diplomatic channels. Is the Hive claiming to have the right to take pre-emptive military action when it mearly "speculates" that another faction "might" try to gain the ability to threaten them. This sounds distressingly familiar to a doctorine exposed by a certain shrubbery infesting my country (don't worry though we intend to prune it around november)

Our actions were prudent; you cannot prove that you did not plan to plant that base with the intention of using it at some point against the Human Hive. We weren’t going to wait until CyCon aircraft were bombarding Hiverian cities before we took action.

You attacked PEACE first; you have shown yourself to be aggressors. The Human Hive has committed itself to the fight against imperialism in whatever shape and form it finds. You stole a PEACE colony pod; you moved it to the landmass we had reserved for PEACE, a landmass which the Hive views as vital to its security, from our perspective that does not look good. Regardless of this issue move beyond it, it is over, if you want to move toward better relations with it get of it, accept it, and move on.

	17-03-2004 21:38									#119
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quote: Regardless of this issue move beyond it, it is over, if you want to move toward better relations with it get of it, accept it, and move on

Now that bit of this rant I agree with

-Jam

	17-03-2004 21:46									#120
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I like to bring the attention of people here to the thread initiated by a private Hive citizen.

Please read the recent post there.