18-03-2004 01:08									#121
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Wow such heated discussions. As I just came back from my business trip I feel I have a calmer mind so that I may be able to summarize a few observations as objective as I can.

Here're the facts I gather, let me know if I'm incorrect:

1. CC broke out a war against PEACE, Hive stated its desire of keeping neutral.
2. CC merged with Uni and formed CPU. Hive felt hesitatant and lowered its CC pact to treaty.
3. PEACE was at risk of being eradicated by the CPU. The Hive presented a motion for cease fire and returning of the PEACE bases by the CPU. Have CPU and PEACE reached a cease fire? I'm not very sure about this.
4. Sometime during this period, CPU converted PEACE's colony pod and Hive later destroyed this colony pod.
5. We are all heavily accusing each other for our past actions.

I think we all understand each other regarding what happened. What we don't agree upon is what is wrong and what is right. However, as many pointed out this may not be the key. The key is what we are going to accept and what we are not.

[Edit] Edited so that CPU does not read PUT.
Oh and this point:
6. Function GeoModder is promoted after his success in PEACE colony pod conversion mission to an unknown position.

Last edited by Snowflake on 18-03-2004 at 02:59

	18-03-2004 01:17									#122
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Wow such heated discussions. As I just came back from my business trip I feel I have a calmer mind so that I may be able to summarize a few observations as objective as I can.

Welcome back to real business.

The only wrong point I can find in your summarise is:
- point 2, the unification isn't called PUT, but CPU

As for point 3, diplomatic talks continue on a friendly base.

point 5 seemed to have cleared the sky, if this is an english idiom as well...

Btw, you missed my promotion

	18-03-2004 01:21									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire The Central Military Committee was concerned that the base would be used for military purposes, which could be a threat to the security of the Hiverian homeland. The action was taken as a prudent means by which to ensure our long term security. We would have allowed PEACE to establish a base there; this does not mean we would have allowed you to do it.

So instead of asking us not to build one, you just destroy it. Great. Let's murder civilians without provokation or warning, because we can't be bothered to ask first if they'd withdraw it.

As for your comments about our threats. You just declared war and attacked a civilian unit, killing thousands. We're happy to be civil and debate it, but you didn't even give us an ultimatum, you just attacked us. Even your own faction members said it was an act of terrorism.

	18-03-2004 01:23									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire If I recall correctly your aggression was deemed illegal by the Council,

Yes, declaring war and killing units, especially civilians, was declared illegal. Which is why you just did it.

quote: Originally posted by Voltaire Second of all the CyCon was attempting to use civilians as a shield in an attempt to establish a military base within the reach of Hiverian soil.

Which we weren't.

quote: Originally posted by Voltaire Should we take this as the view of all CyConians?

Should we take Enigma's old views, Jamski's views, HongHu's posts all as the view of all Hiverians?

quote: Originally posted by Voltaire The Hive wants peace, but we will have peace on fair and equitable terms, not on your terms.

So do we. We want a peace that doesn't involve you attacking us.

Look at the Hive CPU relationship. We asked for a co-op victory, you said no but agreed to Pact. Then you downgraded, when we didn't want to. They you attacked us, when we wanted peace. And yet you think you're the ones wanting peace? Friendship?

	18-03-2004 01:33									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire You attacked PEACE first; you have shown yourself to be aggressors.

We gave you reasons. We attacked peace because there was no council or forum to bring our grievances to, as a last resort. You declare war, on unarmed civilians, because you felt threatened, without any warning for an evactuation or communication whatsoever. You also are aggressors, without provocation.

quote: Originally posted by Voltaire The Human Hive has committed itself to the fight against imperialism in whatever shape and form it finds. You stole a PEACE colony pod; you moved it to the landmass we had reserved for PEACE, a landmass which the Hive views as vital to its security, from our perspective that does not look good.

Without telling us that was reserved for PEACE and while CPU and PEACE were discussing their zone?

quote: Originally posted by Voltaire Regardless of this issue move beyond it, it is over, if you want to move toward better relations with it get of it, accept it, and move on.

Excuse me? You think that killing our unarmed citizens doesn't have reparations? You start a council motion accusing us of atrocities while you murder innocent civilians. You break international laws that you wrote in the last council motion, and think that's ok?

We'd like to move on. We'd like to be friends. But when our allies first downgrade their relationship, then, without warning, accuse us of an action they once agreed with, without telling us their opinions had changed, then attack us, killing our civilians, without warning and provocation, and you think that all this is ok, that you're being defensive? You are the aggressor with CPU. You attacked us. You broke off the pact. Yet you claim we're the ones who won't talk? We do, and have always, wanted to discuss and co-operate with the Hive. But how can we when we are met with threats, ultimatums, and violence. You accuse of of threats, yet you have threatened us.

	18-03-2004 02:41									#126
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quote: I like to bring the attention of people here to the thread initiated by a private Hive citizen. Please read the recent post there.

That means ignore the last long posts (sorry Drogue you must have taken ages to type them all) which are only designed to try to inflame this argument.

* Jamski feels guilty for not really reading Drogue's points, but knows that arguing with him won't help the situation *

-Jam

	18-03-2004 02:54									#127
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Don't worry... I was just rambling probably anyway

	18-03-2004 03:00									#128
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Welcome back to real business. The only wrong point I can find in your summarise is: - point 2, the unification isn't called PUT, but CPU As for point 3, diplomatic talks continue on a friendly base. point 5 seemed to have cleared the sky, if this is an english idiom as well... Btw, you missed my promotion

Oops sorry. Post edited.

	18-03-2004 03:01									#129
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quote: Don't worry... I was just rambling probably anyway

Normally I like to read your "Drogue specials"... but I'm not sure a carefully detailed RP-rebuttal of each point would really help the cause.

-Jam

	18-03-2004 03:06									#130
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Hey we have not killed innocent civillians!!! We were informed by your newly promoted Function GeoModder that you've captured the PEACE civillians inside the colony pod and they are being safely cared for by the CPU as prisoners of war. The Hive coastle guard reported suspicious indications of unknown virus ... They can't actually be the remnant of CPU assimilation can they?

	18-03-2004 03:07									#131
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HONGHU!!!!!!

Stop it!!!!!

This doesn't help the democratic process.

-Jam

	18-03-2004 03:08									#132
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Hey we have not killed innocent civillians!!! We were informed by your newly promoted Function GeoModder that you've captured the PEACE civillians inside the colony pod and they are being safely cared for by the CPU as prisoners of war. The Hive coastle guard reported suspicious indications of unknown virus ... They can't actually be the remnant of CPU assimilation can they?

* GeoModder gestures towards Pravda, 3D and the newly created thread by Jamski...

	18-03-2004 03:28									#133
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Oh! ok.

	18-03-2004 03:30									#134
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-Jam

	18-03-2004 03:44									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue So instead of asking us not to build one, you just destroy it. Great. Let's murder civilians without provokation or warning, because we can't be bothered to ask first if they'd withdraw it. As for your comments about our threats. You just declared war and attacked a civilian unit, killing thousands. We're happy to be civil and debate it, but you didn't even give us an ultimatum, you just attacked us. Even your own faction members said it was an act of terrorism.

You’ll have to bring that up with the Foreign Affairs Committee; it’s not under my jurisdiction.

The Hive government would greatly appreciate the names of any such alleged members who made that claim.

	18-03-2004 03:47									#136
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quote: Yes, declaring war and killing units, especially civilians, was declared illegal. Which is why you just did it.

War is not illegal as have been stated numerous times, aggression is. This was an act of self-defense.

quote: Which we weren't.

I’ll take the word of the CMC report any day over yours.

quote: Should we take Enigma's old views, Jamski's views, HongHu's posts all as the view of all Hiverians?

Good point.

quote: So do we. We want a peace that doesn't involve you attacking us. Look at the Hive CPU relationship. We asked for a co-op victory, you said no but agreed to Pact. Then you downgraded, when we didn't want to. They you attacked us, when we wanted peace. And yet you think you're the ones wanting peace? Friendship?

Meanwhile as all this was going on the University and CyCon merged and invaded PEACE.

	18-03-2004 03:50									#137
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Voltaire unless you stop overriding the efforts of the rest of "your" faction time after time because you have a personal vendetta against the CyCon, then you may find yourself playing on your own in the Hive team.

-Jam

	18-03-2004 03:53									#138
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quote: Excuse me? You think that killing our unarmed citizens doesn't have reparations? You start a council motion accusing us of atrocities while you murder innocent civilians. You break international laws that you wrote in the last council motion, and think that's ok?

It was an act of self-defense. We deny that they were unarmed innocent civilians, rather a military front for a forward CPU base with Hiverian territory.

quote: We'd like to move on. We'd like to be friends. But when our allies first downgrade their relationship, then, without warning, accuse us of an action they once agreed with, without telling us their opinions had changed, then attack us, killing our civilians, without warning and provocation, and you think that all this is ok, that you're being defensive? You are the aggressor with CPU. You attacked us. You broke off the pact. Yet you claim we're the ones who won't talk? We do, and have always, wanted to discuss and co-operate with the Hive. But how can we when we are met with threats, ultimatums, and violence. You accuse of of threats, yet you have threatened us.

Then talk, the Foreign Affairs Committee will be more than please to hear and listen to what you have to say. We have made mistakes in the past as have you, if we want to correct them this is the time to do it, so by all means enter into formal negotiations with the Hive whereby we may come to some sort of agreement. Continued accusations will not help things; they will only make them worse.

	18-03-2004 03:56									#139
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Stop you counter-revolutionary action against the Chairman will you Jamski?

	18-03-2004 04:02									#140
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Deleted.

	18-03-2004 04:06									#141
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder "Originally posted by Voltaire - Self-defense, there’s a difference."

This is the second time I’ve gotten into a signature.

	18-03-2004 04:07									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Voltaire unless you stop overriding the efforts of the rest of "your" faction time after time because you have a personal vendetta against the CyCon, then you may find yourself playing on your own in the Hive team. -Jam

I’ll note now for the record that my opinions express only my own, not those of the Human Hive. The Hive democratically will decide what course of action to take.

	18-03-2004 04:07									#143
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Never! The Chairman is single-handedly determined to take the Hive to war against the wishes of the Hive people!

quote: Only the fallen Stand silent testimony To the Hive's Glory The heros of now Are just the fading shadows Of the Hive's sunset. The cry rises up "Where are the Kodys of old That lead us so well?" There is just silence No answering voices come. There is no more hope. The spark of freedom That once burnt so brightly here Is now a stranger The citizens stand In thier great grey regiments Of undying shame. Not one drone dissents For the Chairman's word is law Crushing all to dust Democracy weeps There is no hope for the Hive There is no hope, but... Still Comrade Jamski Defies the dictatorship And calls for freedom!

-Jam

	18-03-2004 04:10									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire This is the second time I’ve gotten into a signature.

Glad you like it, it seemed appropriate...

Have to go now, thanks for the company, people.

	18-03-2004 04:11									#145
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I’ve just realize that Jamski’s the single reason the Hive needs a court, in fact both of our cases were about him. You cause too much trouble.

	18-03-2004 04:16									#146
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See how the Chairman brutally stamps on those that oppose him!

* Jamski is brutally crushed beneath the Chairman's iron boot *

-Jam

	18-03-2004 08:29									#147
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See the repression inherent in the system!!!

quote: Originally posted by Voltaire quote: The colony pod flew the CPU colours. It responded to CPU orders. It did not respond to PEACE government orders. So that is 3 factions at least that recognise the CP as CPU property. And at least three that do not, so we’re even.

You're not even close to being even. You speak for the Hive, that is true. However you have yet to provide any proof that other factions did not recongnise CPU as being the new owners of the colony pod. I provided proof, it is only fair to ask the same of you.

	18-03-2004 08:32									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns You're not even close to being even. You speak for the Hive, that is true. However you have yet to provide any proof that other factions did not recongnise CPU as being the new owners of the colony pod. I provided proof, it is only fair to ask the same of you.

Eh, the Hive, the Drones, and PEACE. That's 3 by my count.

	18-03-2004 08:43									#149
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I already proved that PEACE recognised our claim. Try again.

	18-03-2004 08:45									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I already proved that PEACE recognised our claim. Try again.

Did PEACE say they recognized your claim?