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The Emperor Fabulous
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Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:34
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God damn...no one reads CNN.com anymore
quote:
Bombs 'to split Spain from allies'
MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- A document published months before national elections reveals al Qaeda planned to separate Spain from its allies by carrying out terror attacks.
A December posting on an Internet message board used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers and obtained by CNN, spells out a plan to topple the pro-U.S. government.
"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.
"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."
That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.
Ninety percent of Spaniards had opposed Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's staunch support for the U.S.-led war against Iraq, and some have blamed his government's policies for the train bombings.
Prime Minister-elect Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said Monday he wanted the 1,300 Spanish troops in Iraq to return home by June 30 if the United Nations "doesn't take control of Iraq."
"I think Spain's participation in the war has been a total error," he said. (Full story)
Meanwhile, one of the five men arrested in connection with the bombings has links to the plotters of an al Qaeda-linked bombing in Casablanca last year, CNN has learned.
The May 2003 suicide attacks in Casablanca killed nearly three dozen people.
Spanish authorities have arrested three Moroccans and two Indians in connection with the Madrid bombings.
One of the men, Jamal Zougam, 30, has ties to two brothers who have been charged in connection with the Casablanca bomb plot, according to a Moroccan government official.
Zougam is also believed to be a follower of Imad Eddin Barakat Yarkas, the alleged ringleader of al Qaeda in Spain, according to a Spanish court document.
All five are being held incommunicado under Spain's anti-terrorism law, which requires they be charged within five days of their detention.
Authorities said investigators tracked the men through a cellular telephone and a pre-paid telephone card discovered in a backpack containing explosives found shortly after Thursday's attacks.
Helping the investigation is a videotape in which a man claiming to be a military spokesman for al Qaeda in Europe says the terrorist network was behind the bombings.
In the United States, Asa Hutchinson, the undersecretary for the Department of Homeland Security, said they thought the Madrid bombings had the fingerprints of al Qaeda.
"We do know that there is a connection to al Qaeda. We have verified that," he told CNN.
"At this point, there clearly is some link and we're going to continue to see the depth of that."
However, another administration official would only say Islamic fundamentalists remain high on the list of suspects.
"Things are slightly leaning towards Islamic fundamentalist responsibility, as opposed to pure ETA or al Qaeda," one senior administration official said.
ETA is a Basque separatist group that has been fighting for more than three decades for an independent state. The group is designated a terrorist organization by the United States and the European Union.
The U.S. intelligence community is considering the possibility the bombings may have been carried out by a number of people with various ties to terrorist groups, the senior administration official said, adding theories include the following possibilities:
- Islamic fundamentalists with support from ETA;
- Islamic fundamentalists with close ties to al Qaeda, although not necessarily "card-carrying members of al Qaeda"; or,
- Members of ETA or al Qaeda.
In the wake of the bombings, Spanish Interior Minister Angel Acebes announced Monday that a European Union anti-terrorist conference will be held Friday in Madrid. (Full story)
U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said he was confident Spain would continue to play a significant role in the war on terrorism.
"Terrorism has to be defeated," he said.
"I don't think the Spanish people are any more inclined to give any encouragement to terrorists or to give terrorists the slightest impression that they are not going to be engaged fully by the Spanish government -- no matter who is prime minister."
Powell added that he was not sure if the Madrid bombings affected the outcome of Sunday's elections: "But the one thing I'm quite sure of is that Spanish people remain committed in the war against terrorists." |
Seems like they DID get what they wanted...
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:34
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It's become blatantly clear that Aznar lost because they tried to blame ETA for the bombings before evidence was there.
The right is using this pathetic "terrorists have won" excuse for the reason Aznar lost. But the SPanish public kicked out Anzar's party because they were inept and LIARS!
quote:
Furious protesters chant: ‘Our dead, your war’
By Neil Mackay, Marion McKeone in Washington and James Cusick in Madrid
THREE Moroccans and two Indians have been arrested in Spain for the Madrid train bombings on Thursday. All five are thought to be linked to two militant Islamic groups which were named as the Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group and Salafia Jihadi.
The arrests came as 5000 angry demonstrators picketed the offices of the ruling Popular Party shouting “lies” and other slogans claiming that Prime Minister José María Aznar had covered up the truth about the atrocity by blaming the Basque separatist group ETA ahead of today’s general election.
The arrests were confirmed by the interior minister, Angel Acebes, who said the five were arrested in connection with pay-as-you-go mobile phone cards found in a “backpack bomb” that the police recovered from one of the bombed trains. Acebes, who had blamed ETA within hours of the atrocity, said last night: “Sixty hours after the brutal attack, we now have five detentions.”
American intelligence agencies believed all along that al-Qaeda was behind the Madrid bombings but deferred to the Spanish government’s claims that ETA was responsible, pending the general election. Both FBI and CIA agents are in Madrid assisting the authorities.
Spain’s National Intelligence Centre (CNI) is also said to be “99% certain” that Muslim extremists and not ETA were responsible for the attacks, according to a left-wing Spanish radio station. Aznar’s party faces an angry backlash today with many voters now convinced he lied about al-Qaeda’s involvement fearing that the Spanish public would blame him for the loss of life. Nearly 90% of all Spaniards had been against Aznar supporting the war in Iraq and many now see the Madrid bombings as pay-back.
Aznar is seen in the Arab world as the third most significant player in the so-called “coalition of the willing”. Spain has sent 1300 troops to Iraq.
If ETA had been responsible for the attacks, many voters would have flocked to the Popular Party because of Aznar’s eight-year security crackdown on the Basque terror group.
ETA has denied any involvement in the attacks, and an Islamic extremist organisation earlier claimed the atrocity in the name of al-Qaeda. A van linked to the attacks was found to contain Koranic verses and detonators.
Last night some 3000 people staged a spontaneous demonstration outside the Popular Party’s offices in Madrid chanting “We want the truth before voting”, “Who did it?”, “Our dead, your war” “No more cover-ups” and “Aznar, because of you, we all pay”. Some demonstrators were beaten by police in riot gear.
The Popular Party’s Mariano Rajoy – who will be the new prime minister if Aznar’s party wins the election after he decided to step down – denied the government withheld information, saying: “I give my word of honour that I do not know more than the rest of the Spanish people.”
Opposition Socialist Party leaders have accused the government of hiding al-Qaeda’s role. “Whoever toys with the truth at a time of so much pain is doing something very grave,” said senior Socialist Party official José Blanco.
Al-Qaeda has long been known to have a number of sleeper cells in Spain. The country has jailed some two dozen al-Qaeda suspects, including eight men thought to have helped plan the September 11, 2001, attacks. Suspects in last May’s Casablanca bombings and a 2002 synagogue bombing in Tunisia were also arrested in Spain.
The El Pais newspaper, which has strongly criticised Aznar’s government, said that Spain’s foreign minister, Ana Palacio, had written to ambassadors within hours of the explosions, saying in a memo: “You
should use any opportunity to confirm ETA’s responsibility for these brutal attacks, thus helping to dissipate any type of doubt that certain interested parties may want to promote.”
As a result of the memo, there was a clash at the United Nations between a senior Spanish diplomat and the Russian ambassador. The Russian was reluctant to approve a resolution condemning Eta, arguing that it was impossible to prove responsibility for a terrorist act on the day it was committed.
Spanish anti-terrorism officials have questioned the government’s insistence on blaming Eta despite evidence suggesting that al-Qaeda was behind the attacks.
Norway’s Defence Research Establishment also uncovered documents linking al-Qaeda to the attacks. The documents said: “We must make use of the proximity to the elections in Spain in March next year. Spain can stand a maximum of two or three attacks before they will withdraw from Iraq.”
The document identifies Spain as the weakest link in the Coalition of the Willing and says that if Spain withdrew then the other partners would follow like “pieces of domino”. Bin Laden has previously threatened vengeance against Spain.
British intelligence was aware that al-Qaeda was planning to use ‘train bombs’ at least three months ago. Intelligence sources say continental targets were most at risk, particularly the high-speed Paris-Lyon TGV.
Both US and UK intelligence agencies suspected from the end of last year that al-Qaeda wanted to blow up a train as it went through a station. The bombs on the four trains that were attacked in Madrid were all meant to detonate as they converged on one station, bringing down the roof and killing thousands.
European and Middle Eastern intelligence agencies say that al-Qaeda has recruited thousands of men in countries like Germany, France and the UK. They are said to have received high-grade military training in firearms and explosives.
14 March 2004
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link: http://www.sundayherald.com/40579
The Western Media isn't reporting the MASS PROTESTS and DEMONSTRATIONS in Spain against the LYING, INEPT Aznar party. But that's the TRUTH FOLKS.
And you pathetic righties need to admit it, or wallow in your own dillusions.
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SpencerH
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Co-Ruler of my patch of land south of Birmingham Alabama
Feb 2002
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
You still don't get it? Sheesh. My arguement is that while you say it has nothing to do with the war in Iraq, it does. |
How can I argue with that? Your psychic powers are clearly flowing today.
quote:
For the most part, those that supported the war call this appeasement, those who did not say it sisn;t. The lines are not absolute, but it is a very good prognasticator of what one wiull say on this. I see that as proff of my contention-specially since the claim that this is appeasement deal directly with Iraq. |
Gee, this isnt like one of my 'reasonable assumptions' is it?
I agree that the spanish vote, as a whole, had nothing to do with appeasement. But, you've already admitted that voters changed their vote based on the bombing and that it was to hopefully prevent further attacks on spanish soil.
quote:
Do you see the future? Any proof the admin. won't go to the UN again-and by again I mean like a 3rd or 4th time, depending on how you count them.... I am not the one making pronouncements of what will and won;t be. I know I don;t see the future. |
So you can read my mind but cant see the future?
Whats the matter, are you incapable of analysing data and predicting a result rather than simply commenting after the fact? Isnt this what so many detractors (I'm not sure if this includes you) wanted from the intelligence services?
I'll give you mine, it wont come as a shock. The administration may go back to the UN, but so long as GWB is President we will not give up any fundamental control until we are sure that the government in Iraq wont go belly-up.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
well, isn't it so that the only dangerous precedent that has been set the past year is the complete and utter destruction of the legitimacy of the UN security council by the one sided invasion of iraq by the US? This administration practically paralised the only international body that could actually solve the terrorist problem in the long run |
Again, up front, for clarity: I am not accusing the Spanish of appeasement. I made my views on their decision in the other thread (what will pulling out the troops do...).
Yes, the Bushies' treatment of the UN set a bad precedent.
The concern here among many is that Spain pulling out its troops may send an unfortunate message to AQ and other likeminded groups. Personally, I have no issue with the Spanish withdrawing, since that's entirely up to them, I just don't like the timing of the policy change:
1 - terror attack
2 - election, results in election of opposition party
3 - opposition party leader announces troop withdrawl
You and I can look at this and say, ah, but 80% of Spain was against the war in the first place, and the socialist party has been for removing the troops all the while.
But many will not. You can bet AQ won't. They will trumpet this as a great victory against the evil crusader alliance, and they will certainly attempt to duplicate it.
At the end of the day, I think the people of Spain asserting themselves and electing a government that serves their interests is a very good thing, and outweighs my concerns regarding AQ.
-Arrian
p.s. Back to the U.N., I and many other Americans (including those who can't stand Bush), see it as a weak and ineffectual organization. This is largely because the UN only has teeth when its member states give it teeth (and this of course means the USA too), and only has resolve when its members have resolve. The members of the UN hardly ever actually agree on anything, and even when they do it's the result of negotiations over who gets what concession on what other issue... etc, etc. Better than law of the jungle? YES. But it still does suck when decisive action is needed, and so while I was against the Iraq war and am generally against US unilateralism, I *do* understand why we reserve the right to unilateral action to defend our interests if necessary.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I never said otherwise and if it will get the discussion back on more interesting ground (i.e. does appeasement work or not), I'm perfectly willing to stipulate to the UN definition of the term. |
Well, the problem is that you and I disagree on what counts as appeasement. To me the fact Iraq might be labelled "aggressor" has nothing to due with the eventual question: when do you resist, when do you give in? Saddam did not pull out in 1990 becuase he
a. did not think the US would actually take the risk of war
b. though to pull out would reveal weakness and cause him to lose power.
Both assumptions I think were incorrect-history proves the first one wrong, and he would have had the power to crush any revolt against him with his army intact.
Now, if one says that the US would have decided it needed to get rid of Saddam period, then appeasing the US would not have worked, since the eventual US aim would have been Saddam's utter capitulation, and this was something he could not do.
Too me, your definition is like a self-fulfilling version of mine- as I said, whether appeasement works is based on the eventual aims of each side- if you label one side "aggressor" you are on the verge of saying their aims are inherently to utterly destroy the other side-well, then no duh appeasement would not work then.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
I don't like it either. In fact, when I looked at the front page of the paper today, I got a very disturbed feeling. All Spaniards should reassert their opposition to al-qaeda and their willingness to stand with those who will fight them. It they don't they are free riders. I hate to say that, but victims should be the first to pick up the sword. |
Good post. Hopefully the Spaniards will agree that simply arresting the terrorist they find on their soil will not solve the problem of terrorism. Also, almost no one agrees that allowing Iraq to fall apart is a good thing from the point of view of terrorism.
Last edited by Ned on 16-03-2004 at 23:50
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16-03-2004 22:16
) Army... Yes... the Serbs did some things that were bad... but it is exactly like Israel's situation. They were fighting terrorists and yes, there were human rights violations... but not to the extent that the media portrayed it.
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