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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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When it comes down to it, there is very little we can test with assurance. I believe that the HG can balance out its cost and perhaps gain us some more as well... But there are two real things we have to consider when deciding whether or not to build the Hanging Gardens or not.
Consideration 1: How long do we have before the Hanging Gardens goes obsolete?
Obviously there is a huge difference if we get 10 turns out of the wonder as opposed to us being able to get 40 turns out of it. With CGN probably exiting the research scene fairly soon we are likely to have longer to reach the Industrial Age and Steam Power (our first tech... unless CGN gets it for free). After Education we have Banking, Astronomy, Physics, Theory of Gravity, Magnetism, Chemistry, Metallurgy (Military Tradition, Music Theory and Economics) and finally Steam Power. Altogether that's 11 techs before we enter the Industrial Age. We can probably count on CFC to research ~2 of these (they will eventually have to start doing their own research eventually). That leaves 9 techs. At a rough, say 8 turns each that's 72 turns. We can finish the Hanging Gardens in Bananatopia in ~25 turns. That's almost 50 turns of use from the HG.
Rough, yes. But we don't have much to go off of without really extensive research into this. Even if we cut off 10 turns of this (and burn up more gold, leaving less for upgrading and rushing) that's still 40 turns. Quite a significant amount of time.
Consideration 2: How effective will the HG be? Or: Do we plan on pushing beyond what the HG gives us?
HG gives us size 9. Okay, that's well and dandy. What about size 12? We want to be able to put forward our full industrial and commercial potential. In order to do that we want size 12 cities. Clearly, strictly limiting ourselves to the size 9 limit that the HG allows us is a complete waste and utter lunacy. How does the HG fit into our plans to achieve higher pop cities, culminating in size 12?
As E_T pointed out earlier the capability of getting to size 12 allows us to do an Aquaduct, and then a Market after that once we get to size 7, making things easier to reach that point. This speeds up overall growth, since having to do a Market and an Aquaduct means that that's 200 shields of infrastructure that has to be in place before we can get above size 6... quite a task for the lower SPT cities that we have. Being able to do Aquaduct for 100s, then go above 6, while doing work on a Market thereafter with higher pops (even if it's only 1 extra laborer) is indeed an advantage for our cities.
In summary, I do not believe that we should be looking at the HG OR luxury slider option... they should be used together. HG to help cradle the smaller and less productive cities as well as push a little more out of our empire while we bring our other cities up to and stable at size 12.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by OPD
yes that's exactly what I suggested.
quote:
Also, as Done said, completely ignoring building units is also not very realistic.
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I wasn't suggesting building no units I was just saying that I didn't build any.
It's unrealistic to think we can have a comparably army to GWT. Getting to nationalism and steam asap would be alot better for our millitary IMO. Horse based units are where GWT's strength is and the quicker we can turn it into an IA fight the quicker their strength becomes redundant.
quote:
Why would we want to go so slow? Part of it is having to do those optional techs. We also have a lot of other things that need gold: upgrades and rushing in particular. Upgrades alone will cost an arm and a leg without Leo's, and everyone knows how expensive rushing can be. |
We don't have to do the optional techs, unless perhaps we want GWT to catch up in tech? GWT aren't going to be researching Monarchy or Music Theory and probably not any of the other optional techs once they realize how far behind they are. Right now Nationalism and SP should be far more of a priority than economics and navigation and if we really want those wonders we can always go back and research them later on when we are in a more secure position and have more shields are for the wonders. |
You know, I think I agree. Industrial age = rails and factories! With GWT's GA over, and ours still to come, we could really stretch our tech lead, get to the IA, get rails and factories up, and then double back for other things. Maybe I've been thinking about wonders too much. We're just not in wonder-building shape yet. But during our GA, and after it with Factories, we will be a freakin' MACHINE.
Hmm...
-Arrian
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
You know, I think I agree. Industrial age = rails and factories! With GWT's GA over, and ours still to come, we could really stretch our tech lead, get to the IA, get rails and factories up, and then double back for other things. Maybe I've been thinking about wonders too much. We're just not in wonder-building shape yet. But during our GA, and after it with Factories, we will be a freakin' MACHINE.
Hmm...
-Arrian |
I think the lightbulb just went off  , and this is the essence of the arguement for Monarchy and HG.
Use that wonder to propell us forward faster, consider it a short term sling shot. Short term in the sense of 70 to 80 turns.
It is novel and indeed interesting. And I just have a feeling it will work
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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Shouldn't there have been a vote for this?
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Shouldn't there have been a vote for this? |
There was little time. We could have delayed the turn by another 1-3 days for a vote on the issue, but it seemed that opinion had swayed in favor of the plan and we didn't want to delay the game multiple days just for a poll on something that already seemed to have support.
This is, afterall, the reason why we have Consuls in the first place. There was ample time for discussion, but when time became short and a decision had to be made, we've been given the authority to make it in order to keep the game moving. Of course, that rule was established with that logic when the game still had a turn timer where we would get penalized if we took over 24 hours... if people want us to take longer on something like this just to poll it (and be SURE that it has support), I'm open to that.
Personally, I've chosen to slow the game down for stuff like this before, but in this case a poll starting when I got back from my trip last night would have delayed the save by AT LEAST another 24 hours. If someone had started a poll during the 3 days while I was gone (which really should have been done...), then we would have had a poll result by the time I got back and found that no-one had played the save in my absence.
So, actually, I was sort of wondering about this when I got back myself... why didn't someone start a poll at some point in the last 3 days? There was hardly any discussion in the thread by that point as we were just waiting on the save anyhow. For reference, since there had already been a discussion thread for several days (this one), ANYONE could have started such a poll.
I guess we'll just have to do a better job, as a team, of posting such polls in the future.
Last edited by Arnelos on 27-03-2004 at 03:39
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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Personally, I was under the (faulty?) impression that since this thread sought out an alternative future from the one that had been, from what I understood, discussed for months, it would be more proper to poll in order to change, what I mean is, the default would be the old plan and this new plan would be implemented if voted in via poll. That to me would be much more logical and true to the ideals of the game than what has occurred. Now if I'm mistaken, and we haven't had a plan in place, then ok, but this thread seemed to present itself as an alternative to what was currently in place. As such the responsibilty on creating a poll would be the proponents of the change, not those wishing for the old system to be maintained.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Personally, I was under the (faulty?) impression that since this thread sought out an alternative future from the one that had been, from what I understood, discussed for months, it would be more proper to poll in order to change, what I mean is, the default would be the old plan and this new plan would be implemented if voted in via poll. That to me would be much more logical and true to the ideals of the game than what has occurred. Now if I'm mistaken, and we haven't had a plan in place, then ok, but this thread seemed to present itself as an alternative to what was currently in place. As such the responsibilty on creating a poll would be the proponents of the change, not those wishing for the old system to be maintained. |
Was the previous plan of going for Astronomy, Banking, Print Press, Chemistry, or Music Theory next polled? I seem to recall that it has been discussed for some time, but was never actually polled.
I'll take my fair share of the blame for not getting that polled, if so. Point is, I agree that this issue did need to be polled. I only wish I were around to have done it this time, but I have to accept some responsibility for not having polled the issue previous to that.
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:34
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As for myself starting a poll, I was first wanting to have a little bit more in the way of numbers to present to the Population before said poll. That required me to get a new sim up and running, with the corruption corrected for (as best as possible), so that we could have AS ACCURATE as possible information to be presented on this issue. I worked on this as much as humanly possible and only got my sim up to the point of the current turn (after scrapping an entire days work on a sim that had gotten some form of bug in it).
The Consuls aren't at fault in this, but then neither is the rest of us (or conversely, EVERYONE is at fault). If anything, it was the need to get the game moving. This is something that we all knew would sometimes occure, when we had first started this game. We have done as much as possible to make sure that there is no disenfranchizement while trying to keep the flow of the game moving.
Now, we have only done 1 turn of research into Monarchy and we can still change the techs to something else without too much of a loss. So, if some of us still feel that this needs to be polled, lets do it and get it over with!!
MoI E_T
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20-03-2004 01:52
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