18-03-2004 11:32									#1
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The voting is now over on ‘the balancing of the Governments’ and certain issues appear closed for now (at least until the next AU Mod revision after 1.20. That said - one issue that was never brought up was that of the xenophobic flag for Fascism. Let me start by saying that in my opinion the inclusion of ‘secret police and xenophobic’ in C3C was not well thought out by the designers – and was far more of an afterthought for the sake of ‘government uniqueness’. It was not well thought out in that a corruption reducing SPHQ was far more of a need for Fascism than Communism – historically both these totalitarian forms were notorious for their ‘secret police’. In any case, at the very least both totalitarian governments should have had the same option. The decision to include a ‘genocide flag’ (under the title of xenophobic) for Fascism while not including one for Communism is historically inaccurate to the extreme, both of these governemnts have infamous historical examples of mass genocides. It is however not my intention to focus on the degree of horror of either of these monstrous tyrannies. My primary concern is the impact that these ‘government flavors’ have on the game.

I believe that most of you would agree that the recent decision to have Fascism go to ‘minimal’ corruption does not in reality make this highly favored AI government much better – but only incrementally so. Personally I believe that combining the ‘minimal’ corruption with changing SPHQ from a Commie option to a Fascist one would; A. have only a small negative effect on Commie, and, B.go a long way towards addressing Fascisms impotence as a wartime option. This however is no longer on the table for discussion at this time.

This leaves perhaps 2 small incremental changes that can be done to give Fascism a slight boost – firstly, the elimination of the ‘xenophobic’ flag. Whether the ‘xenophobic’ flag actually represents genocide or not (I believe that it does so – and in an obvious manner) is unimportant - that in game terms it translates out into a mass population loss IS important. The AI already tends to draft and pop-rush itself to death in Fascism – xenophobic simply magnifies this effect and hastens the inefficiency of the AI. The elimination of this flag would help Fascism slightly – but they can use that ‘slight’ help. Secondly, is the issue of ‘police stations’ - here is corruption-reducing building that is available with Commie. The problem is that the Fascist AIs will never benefit from them unless they first spend another research cycle on another totalitarian government tech, after already having researched one! I will not venture as to whether police stations should more properly be available with Fascism, Espionage, or Nationalism – what I do know is that the present situation is another ‘Fascism handicap’ that this government can ill afford.

So here are my 2 proposals in brief:

1. Remove ‘Xenophobic’ flag from Fascism.

2. Move the availability of ‘police stations’ to a tech other than ‘Communism’

Ision

Last edited by Ision on 18-03-2004 at 11:49

	18-03-2004 16:54									#2
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The SPHQ actually seems to be something Firaxis adopted from the mod community (including the AU Mod). In previous versions, Communism was so bad that it needed something like the SPHQ to make it useful. The problem is that Firaxis did so much else to improve Communism that adopting the SPHQ on top of that makes it too good, at least for big empires.

According to the editor, the flag that causs the pop loss is "Forced Resettlement," not "Xenophobic." The "Xenophobic" flag prevents cities conquered by Fascists from generating culture until at least half of their population is native.

Regarding whether or not eliminating the Forced Resettlement flag would be a good thing, Alexman's graphs imply that Fascism's special disadvantages are actually useful for game balance for civs with a size around the OCN or below. (One caveat: AI empires typically aren't as compact as the ones Alexman used in his experiments because they often have island cities and/or cities on the other side of another AI, so AIs would probably benefit from Communism at a smaller size on average.) Since AI civs seem to be smaller than the OCN a lot more often than they are larger (at least from checking a few of my own past games), Fascism is probably the right government choice for them most of the time in spite of its special penalties. The reason we humans hold Communism in such high regard and have such disdain for Fascism is that our civs are so often vastly larger, especially when we're on a millitary campaign toward domination, and Communism scales with larger numbers of cities a whole lot better than Fascism does.

That's not to say that eliminating Forced Resettlement from Fascism would be a bad thing. On average, it would almost certainly help AIs significantly more than it helps human players, although there would be exceptions when human players (especially on Deity and Sid) are stuck with small civs that late in the game. But from the perspective of typical AIs or of human players with small civs, the idea that Communism is clearly better than Fascism is inaccurate.

Nathan

	18-03-2004 17:02									#3
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Forced Resettlement eh? I had the distinct impression it was Xenphobic that caused the pop loss -?

all right then, I will ammend my proposals now as :

So here are my 2 proposals in brief:

1. Remove ‘the pop-loss flag’ from Fascism.

2. Move the availability of ‘police stations’ to a tech other than ‘Communism’

Ision

	18-03-2004 17:05									#4
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Nathan,

What about the proposed change for 'police stations'?

Ision

	18-03-2004 17:11									#5
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I didn't comment on the issue of police stations because I haven't thought it through enough. My conservative streak is screaming, "No, No, NOOOOO!!!!, but the more thoughtful part of me hasn't reached a conclusion yet.

	18-03-2004 20:13									#6
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Would you want to move Police Stations forward, backward, or laterally on the tech tree?

	18-03-2004 21:04									#7
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay My conservative streak is screaming, "No, No, NOOOOO!!!!,

Hehe.

quote: Originally posted by Ision does not in reality make this highly favored AI government much better – but only incrementally so

I know we have voted on and I personally have suggested some quite radical, large changes for version 1.0 of the C3C AU mod, but now that we have a first pass, I definitely think baby steps are best.

The AU mod is a living thing - propose-debate-play-evaluate-revise-debate-rinse-repeat.

I haven't seen an AI Fascize itself to death yet - tactical and strategic stupidity seem to be the AI's HOV Lane of Doom - so I don't have any personal experience that suggests Fascism is death to the AI the same way that Old Communism was.

I agree that logically and logistically, Police Stations at Communism don't make much sense, and it may be that the gameplay balance that it originally offered is now off with the addition of Fascism, though I'm not sure where it would fit better.

Perhaps if you have some suggestion as to where it would work better, you could make your case - that might help other visualize why PSes at a different tech would help the AI without giving the human an undue advantage.


Since we can't put PSes on two techs, maybe there's a way to simulate it, though I'm no editor wiz, so bear with me...
1. Put Police Stations at Nationalism
2. Make Police Stations require/dependent on "something" - like a dummy resource or something similar.
3. Put said requirement/resource/thingy on both Communism and Fascism.

It sounds really convoluted, but the mental picture I have seems rather elegant, at least for not disadvantaging one police state over the other.
Thoughts?

	19-03-2004 08:36									#8
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Thoughts?

Baby steps, yes.

We haven't seen enough of AI or human behavior with Fascism, so let's take it slowly.

	19-03-2004 15:47									#9
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quote: Originally posted by ducki Since we can't put PSes on two techs, maybe there's a way to simulate it, though I'm no editor wiz, so bear with me... 1. Put Police Stations at Nationalism 2. Make Police Stations require/dependent on "something" - like a dummy resource or something similar. 3. Put said requirement/resource/thingy on both Communism and Fascism.

The problem is that the dummy resource would have to be something that actually exists for that to work, whereas we normally base our tricks on dummy resources that have zero occurrence on the map. If we could keep the new dummy resource from being visible or from having any effect on gameplay (including on where AIs choose to settle and attack) even though it exists, and if that resource would have no effect on the distribution of other resources, the idea might be workable (although the resource would have to exist on practically half the tiles in the game to guarantee that small civs won't ever be stuck unable to build police stations). But otherwise, it would cause too many problems.

	19-03-2004 15:59									#10
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One somewhat bizarre approach, if the AIs could cope with it properly, would be to make police stations require both Communism and Fascism. That could be accomplished by creating a small wonder associated with one government that costs only a single shield and having that small wonder enable the building of Police Stations, which themselves would be associated with the other government. If the AIs would think, "Ah, small wonder, I'll build it," that would be fully workable. If AIs would not build the small wonder almost immediately, however, their access to police stations would be delayed.

Is that a good idea? I'm not quite sure yet. Since AIs tend to get both totalitarian governments sooner or later, motivating human players to do so would presumably tend to help the AIs. On the other hand, for players with large tech leads, having to get two optional government techs instead of one to build police stations could discourage the players from detouring to get the techs needed to build police stations. And the change might be a bit awkward for players to understand and use in addition to being a departure from the default rules.

Nathan

	19-03-2004 16:54									#11
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very interesting idea Nathan - complex, but effective.

what do you think of espionage as the tech for PSs?

	19-03-2004 17:24									#12
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Moving Police Stations to Espionage would make Espionage a lot more interesting for civs not already motivated by the SPHQ, (I word it that way because of the proposals we're looking at to move or eliminate the SPHQ), but the big down side is that it would change things so that neither of the optional industrial government techs is important to a human player unless he wants to change governments. Since Espionage already has at least limited value (and we could give it more value by fiddling with spy mission costs) while Police Stations are the only reason either government tech matters to a player who plans to stay in a representative government, I'm inclined to think that keeping Police Stations with one of the government techs is more useful from the perspective of helping the AIs.

If we put Police Stations with just one government, Fascism would be a better choice in terms of helping the AIs because players are less likely to want that tech in order to change governments. On the other hand, that would involve moving something from where it's been ever since the very beginning of Civ 3, so conservatism argues for leaving Police Stations where they are (as I alluded to earlier).

Nathan

	19-03-2004 18:22									#13
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay ...having that small wonder enable the building of Police Stations

I don't think this is possible. The required building for city improvements has to be in the same city, so you would be able to build only one Police Station.

	19-03-2004 18:59									#14
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Oops. I guess I was crossing a few memories of different things.

	25-03-2004 20:45									#15
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What about removing the Facism tech, and moving Facism govt to nationalism?

	25-03-2004 23:11									#16
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Historically Communism came before Fascism, so there is the option of having Fascism requires Communism tech.

With Fascism getting the Trade Bonus flag, what might be its appropriate corruption level -- problematic or rampant?? Of course, they still have to get out the whips for rushing ....

	25-03-2004 23:37									#17
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I like the idea of moving Fascism(gov) to Nationalism, but if there is enough resistance to mucking with historical timelines, what about moving Commie and PoliceStations to Nationalism BUT putting the SPHQ in the Fascism tech(while keeping it a Commie building) and dropping the cost of Fascism?

On the other hand, goodness that seems convoluted to me now that I've written it down. Too far from stock?

	26-03-2004 00:48									#18
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If communism gov has to come first, then it is also possible to move police station to facism, move communism gov to nationalism, then get rid of communism tech.

	26-03-2004 01:25									#19
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I'm starting to think we ought to revive the idea someone proposed of consolidating Communism and Fascism into a single Totalitarianism tech. That way police stations could be available with the same tech as the Communiism government the way we're used to, but the choice between Communism and Fascism would not affect access to police stations. That's a lot less radical (in my view) than moving one of the governments to Nationalism would be. And for long-time players, consolidating Communism and Fascism into a single tech would probably have less impact on the feel of the game than moving Police Stations to a different tech would.

Nathan

	26-03-2004 01:30									#20
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Personally, I would like to leave the tech tree and improvements alone, and see Fascism become a worthwhile wartime government, at least for the AI.

That would be a minimum change (compared to other ideas being discussed) and would solve all of the issues, wouldn't it?

	26-03-2004 03:15									#21
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Personally, I would like to leave the tech tree and improvements alone, and see Fascism become a worthwhile wartime government, at least for the AI.

Fascism probably already is the better wartime government for most AIs in most situations, especially with the tweaks we've already made in the AU Mod. Still, it would probably be beneficial to the AIs if either they didn't have to research an extra tech to get it or the tech had enough value to human players that AIs could more easily get something useful from us in trade.

	26-03-2004 07:21									#22
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I don't think it's an issue that is addressable by the AU Mod, but I'd like to see AIs more willing to embrace Communism. I've seen numerous instances of AI empires that would undoubtedly benefit from Communism but that settle on Fascism without fail.

Catt

	26-03-2004 08:33									#23
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When I was looking through the editor, I noticed that Communism and Feudalism showed up alot as "shunned" governments. I didn't get a count though.

	26-03-2004 13:12									#24
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Nathan and Alex,

Here’s a radical idea I would like to toss out.......

We all agree that early industrial is 'usually' the point were the human player establishes dominance - and we have all pointed towards 2 primary reasons: the ToE leap and the AI Nationalism beeline....

what if:

We were to give Fascism or Communism (divided evenly among the CIVs) as a starting tech to every CIV? Once the AIs research Nationalism - Commie or Fasci are free. If you consider that Fascism is a recent addition that did not even exist in PTW, the change may not be as radical as it first appears.

I believe that this would help the AI far more than the human. Also, it would help 'subdue' the effect of a successful human ToE - and lastly, it will help re-introduce Communist AIs into the game....

What do you think? Too radical? Downsides I am not accounting for?

Ision

Last edited by Ision on 26-03-2004 at 15:37

	26-03-2004 18:52									#25
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For the small wonder idea:

Can we create a new city improvement that has absolutely no effect whatsoever, but is required in order to build police stations. This new improvement requires a resource that never appears on the map, so can never be built. Then the small wonder that costs 1 shield gives a free one of these buildings in every city on the map, thus enabling police stations to be built anywhere once the required tech is discovered.

Does this work?

	26-03-2004 19:10									#26
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Ision, that IS radical. I'm not sure how to give a free government tech that's available only if you research another tech first (Nationalism). I don't think it's possible. What would prevent me from becoming a Fascist at 4000 BC?

vulture, the problem with your idea is that Small Wonders cannot give one of something to every city. Only Great Wonders can do that.

	26-03-2004 19:54									#27
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How about this:

1. Change nationalism to be required.

2. Make nationalism a pre-req for industrialization.

3. Move communism gov to industrialization.

4. Move police stations to Facism.

5. Get rid of Communism tech.

6. Change the pre-req of Facism to industrialization.

7. Move SPHQ to industrialization.

8. Move espionage HQ to nationalism.

9. Get rid of espionage tech.

	26-03-2004 20:55									#28
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Madine, that would tear the feel of the early industrial era completely to shreds!

I don't view the way things are now as particularly broken, and I do agree with Alexman that the most conservative thing we can do is nothing. A minor tweak or two could probably help the AIs compete a little better, but I don't think radical surgery can be justified.

Nathan

	26-03-2004 23:10									#29
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It seems to me that the totalitarianism idea is more sensible and far less radical than most of those discussed so far in this thread.

I've noticed that one of the disadvantages of the current AI research priorities is that the AI is quite likely to skip both Communism and Fascism especially if only one or two AIs are contributing significantly to research. This tends to happen when most of the AIs are engaged in war as is common at that time.

If Fascism isn't better than Monarchy most of the time then we haven't met the current AU Mod aims on goverment. The AI could do with having at least one of the two goverments relatively quickly compared with getting Democracy and MPPs. A totalitarianism tech means that it could do this while being fair to the two goverments and not wasting too much time on researching optional techs.

quote: I'm not sure how to give a free government tech that's available only if you research another tech first (Nationalism). I don't think it's possible. What would prevent me from becoming a Fascist at 4000 BC?

While I wouldn't support the idea, if Fascism were given to all civs as an extra tech wile still being in the industrial era, then all civs would get it as soon as they entered the industrial age.

	26-03-2004 23:21									#30
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quote: While I wouldn't support the idea, if Fascism were given to all civs as an extra tech wile still being in the industrial era, then all civs would get it as soon as they entered the industrial age.

Could we make it a No Age tech(like Jesse did to Radio) but make it require Communism?