 |
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The Vietnamese seem to be perfectly happy having their own country back. |
actually no, I've read articles recently where they'd also like some freedoms back. they fought briliantly to defeat a large imperialist power, and now they are licking the **** stick along w/ north korea.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
the one thing the UN is good for is diffusing blame. afterall if "everyone" is in on it how is anyone to blame?
otherwise the UN is inept, slow, bickering, cumbersome, and lacks fortitude.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
I think you'll find that the Vietnamese aren't exactly friends of the USA. And their perspective carries a little more weight than your belief as to what it should be, since (a) they are actually there, living their perspective and (b) yours is tainted somewhat. With what exactly we can only speculate, I would assume some degree of national flag upping, but there is something, since your view differs from actuality. |
their perspective is far more tainted than mine. they live in a place w/o freedom of the press, in relatively extreme poverty, with no democracy.
sure they have national pride(afterall they're told to have national pride).
and there are vietnamese now who want some freedoms, tho often they get thrown in jail and harrassed.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
That's just name calling, yavoon.
Why do this? just bring examples of UN failure in nation building, in better conditions than the Iraqi one. |
well it lacks support. tho I do believe it is an accurate description.
name calling is poopy pants.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Whaleboy
|
 |
Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:34
|
|
quote:
otherwise the UN is inept, slow, bickering, cumbersome, and lacks fortitude.
|
As opposed to hegemonic, imperialistic, with a dangerously entrenched institutionalised view of its own global benevolence? 
I'd trust the UN anyway. Why does your character assassination of the UN mean that it cannot run Iraq, especially considering that yours is a view even the American govt aren't to loud about?
quote:
their perspective is far more tainted than mine. they live in a place w/o freedom of the press, in relatively extreme poverty, with no democracy.
|
So your view as to how they should feel is more valid than their view as to how they [b]do[/do] feel? . [Anne Robinson]. Your's is not an objective/independent basis upon which to form a view, you have the demerit of "opposing uninvolvement".
quote:
sure they have national pride(afterall they're told to have national pride).
|
IIRC they don't have to salute the flag as schoolchildren.
quote:
and there are vietnamese now who want some freedoms, tho often they get thrown in jail and harrassed.
|
Which gives them a pro-US disposition? I somehow doubt that. You need to show your positions with good evidence here.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Whaleboy
|
|
Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:34
|
|
quote:
I remember too well the results of UN nation building in Cambodia. Nothing good came out of there, right?
|
You got me by the balls on that one!
Nonetheless, it is my view that especially since they are under the eyes of international scrutiny, it is an organisation populated by somewhat different individuals, and facing the threat from the US (thus need to do a good job) that the UN could do a better job at nation building now. Certainly far better than the USA. *Whaleboy looks in the direction of Afghanistan*.
Don't get me wrong, the UN is a pretty screwed up organisation. It's inefficient, slow, and plagued by some of the same problems the League of Nations faced. Nonetheless, when building a nation that isn't merely a satellite state (and unlike the UN, the same people are in charge pretty much in the USA that saw disasterous policies like that, for example, Iraq and Afghanistan in the 80's), a single nation that has proved itself untrustworthy in this regard (and I am more suspicious because of the blatent zeal of the US to go to war) is going to do a worse job than the UN. It's own fatal subjectivity is cause enough for that.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
As opposed to hegemonic, imperialistic, with a dangerously entrenched institutionalised view of its own global benevolence?
I'd trust the UN anyway. Why does your character assassination of the UN mean that it cannot run Iraq, especially considering that yours is a view even the American govt aren't to loud about?
So your view as to how they should feel is more valid than their view as to how they [b]do[/do] feel? . [Anne Robinson]. Your's is not an objective/independent basis upon which to form a view, you have the demerit of "opposing uninvolvement".
|
they are riled up in many of the ways u hate. nationalism, xenophobia. and ur attack is very backhanded, since u don't provide a view on the vietnamese ppl u merely presuppose they disagree w/ me then say that my view isnt valid.
when in fact while vietnamese certainly do not like americans, THEY DO LIKE things americans have. this includes washers, dryers, freedom of the press, not going to jail for speaking out against the gov't.
which is of course my whole original point. that if they had been wiser 40 years ago they would have fought for us and not against us and thusly ended up more like south korea and less like the shithole they presently occupy. as it is they were not and now they have to try and gain their freedoms all over again.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
In order to have something back, you have to have had it in the first place. Vietnam was always a dictatorship. Nor is there any reason to believe that it would be a free country today had the U.S. won the war. Look at nearby Thailand and Burma. Both pro-Western capitalist, but nasty little authoritarian states (kingdom, dictarship, whatever). |
yes yes ok. they want what other ppl have. thailand is actually growing. still pretty crappy, but got some upside. certainly being pro US merely means u support the US. I am infact talking about having a democracy and having rights etc and so forth. which vietnam would have very likely had seeing as it would have been promised to stop communism by setting up democracies. and seeing as we gave democracy to both japan and south korea, there was both precident and intent.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Actually, they do seem to like us. It's our government they don't like. |
poll?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Az
|
 |
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
|
|
quote:
You got me by the balls on that one!
Nonetheless, it is my view that especially since they are under the eyes of international scrutiny, it is an organisation populated by somewhat different individuals, and facing the threat from the US (thus need to do a good job) that the UN could do a better job at nation building now. Certainly far better than the USA. *Whaleboy looks in the direction of Afghanistan*.
Don't get me wrong, the UN is a pretty screwed up organisation. It's inefficient, slow, and plagued by some of the same problems the League of Nations faced. Nonetheless, when building a nation that isn't merely a satellite state (and unlike the UN, the same people are in charge pretty much in the USA that saw disasterous policies like that, for example, Iraq and Afghanistan in the 80's), a single nation that has proved itself untrustworthy in this regard (and I am more suspicious because of the blatent zeal of the US to go to war) is going to do a worse job than the UN. It's own fatal subjectivity is cause enough for that. |
Afghanistan isn't a fair comparison. It has NOTHING. absolutely NOTHING. It will certainly take a LOT of time to build it. I actually think that the US' grade on Afghanistan is fair.
I wouldn't trust the US to be the world's policeman. It is terribly biased, no doubt. But it seems to be willing to do good in Afghanistan, and in Iraq. I say we should let it. The Americans want the Iraqi oil? The Iraqis wouldn't care who'll build it, and who will they get the dividents from. (And saying that a UN administration won't give away nice condition is at best wishful thinking. Would YOU place an investment in current Iraq, unless you had some nice conditions?)
Halliburton eating up the cash? that's cash from the US treasury, that wouldn't have been there without the US, anyway. Let the american voter sort it out.
So once again. World's policeman? no way. But for THIS PARTICULAR CAUSE, and since it's not like we have someone better for the job, anyway, I say, it's ok.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Anecdotal evidence based on every documentary about people going to or returning to Vietnam I've seen. |
so vietnamese like rich americans who visit them and buy their shirts?
sounds great.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
yavoon
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
You have no answered my point that your view has not got necessarily more validity than another, where they are based on different sets of premises and we are dealing with a set of premises that differ from your own. Basic logic.
And yes you should care. Everyone cares about the lovely Whaleboy darling... |
I'm not going to let u drag me into relativism. sorry go take ur "no point is valid" troll elsewhere.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:34.
Apolyton Time is 00:34. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
19-03-2004 01:13
|