19-03-2004 02:29									#91
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quote: Just so that you know, Whaleboy thinks there is no ethical difference between helping old ladies cross the road, and eating babies. It all depends on "different postulates, and points of view". God, I hate postmodernist bullshit.

Strawman. I think there is no moral difference, assuming the perp isn't a sociopath. There is a clear ethical difference that we can all see. Imposition like that is unacceptable in society.

quote: And there have been there how long exactly?

Enough time to make a difference...

quote: So, you're willing to sacrifice the fait of the Iraqi people in order to prevent some unseen danger? You sound like Rummy.

If I thought the UN would do an inferior job, I would not suggest it is allowed to run Iraq. I believe it will do a superior job, so your point is defunct.

quote: Why's that.

You are a consequentialist are you not?

quote: I didn't know that the brits were close to the ME mentality.

Well there you go! There's a little bit of Gaza inside every Northerner...

quote: Anyway, can I accept this humorous reply as an admission to a conceded point?

Nope. A British-led UN task force is not a unilateral American force.

quote: "Coolitions of the Willing" are inherently shaky- If Iraq is so damned important, why leave it in the hands of a transiatory grouping of states and not make it a global task?

	19-03-2004 02:30									#92
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Oh, and Spiff. , almost as always, btw.

	19-03-2004 02:32									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The problem with "coalitions of the willing" isn't that they're "transiatory", but that they have interests. The same problem will exist with a "global taskforce". It won't be truly global, but more like "dividing the pie"

Two proiblems with this view I see:

1. "they have interests"? Everyone has interests. The point is that any grouping based solely on present political expediency,as the coalition that went into Iraq was, it is just waiting for collapse once members decide it is no longer politically expedient for them to stay in it.

2. As for it being not trully global-what is "trully global"? According to the US the Solomon Islands are part of this darned coalition-what the hell are they doing? Dividing the pie is exactly what needs to happen here, the pie of responsibilities.

	19-03-2004 02:38									#94
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quote: We did not give democracy to South Korea. We gave them th Rhee dictatoship which slaughtered over 100,000 Koreans. The RoK only became a democracy in the 1990s.

well, the bulk of those killed by rhee were seditionists and communists, for what that's worth.

quote: The same with most of our East Asian clients: Taiwan, Indonesia.

when did indonesia turn into a real democracy?

quote: The Philippeans became a democracy inspite of our support of their dicator, Marcos. We only stopped backing him when it became obvious in the last six hours of his raeign he couldn't maintain control.

didn't you love it when they found that imelda had thousands and thousands of pairs of shoes?

quote: Only in Japan did we delver on democracy.

after a long occupation and pretty much a forced: you do things this way or we'll be here longer.

quote: Our record in Asia is very poor. If Vietnam became a democracy, it would be inspite of us, not because of us.

apparently, early on, ho chi minh thought the us would join the war against france on vietnam's side, seeing as they were both former colonies.

quote: actually no, I've read articles recently where they'd also like some freedoms back. they fought briliantly to defeat a large imperialist power, and now they are licking the **** stick along w/ north korea.

well, technically, you have to have eaten something to be licking a **** stick. i don't know if any nkorean has enough to actually ****.






in any case, when are the next polish elections? hopefully, their commitment won't waver further; are they a strong coalition gov't?

	19-03-2004 02:48									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed well, technically, you have to have eaten something to be licking a **** stick. i don't know if any nkorean has enough to actually ****.

sad but true=[


=[

	19-03-2004 02:49									#96
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Well, the point is that Poland was promised WMDs. They were told by US there are WMDs. The US had other reasons and like it's been said that it was just one of the reasons, but for international community that might have been the strongest point joining the effort. I'm not talking about what I think, I'm talking about what they most likely think.

To call them traitors and weak is STUPID. That's how you turn your friends against you. It's only logical. WMDs -> let's roll. No WMDs? Let's get out.

Though I argue that it's stupid to get out now since the war is over and the country is in struggle of making it, so it would be the wrong time to turn your back now. And also when you're this far, you should stick with your allie to the bitter end.

	19-03-2004 02:50									#97
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quote: Two proiblems with this view I see: 1. "they have interests"? Everyone has interests. The point is that any grouping based solely on present political expediency,as the coalition that went into Iraq was, it is just waiting for collapse once members decide it is no longer politically expedient for them to stay in it.

But just as you said. The bulk of the weight lies on the US.

quote: 2. As for it being not trully global-what is "trully global"? According to the US the Solomon Islands are part of this darned coalition-what the hell are they doing? Dividing the pie is exactly what needs to happen here, the pie of responsibilities.

Truly global is something that is striving for the interests of all of humanity. A mission for the UN is a mission of people who are members of different countries, and are often former bureaucrats in the national governments. Thus they too will have interests that may not be beneficial to the world, but are beneficial for their countries.

And as long as no such global layer of people that have the power, the knowledge and the will to do so exist, the world's policeman will be either a bunch of pushy neighbours that just want their will, or the neighbourhood's bully. Such a global bureacracy doesn't exist yet, of course. It won't exist, as long as the UN doesn't collect taxes.

	19-03-2004 02:53									#98
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The US was taken for a ride too, along with the British and the rest of the coalition that was fueled by Iraq foreign nationals and deserters... Thus, it's the Iraq's fault afterall... But let's just blame Bush, it's so much easier, and a lot more fun!

	19-03-2004 02:54									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Strawman. I think there is no moral difference, assuming the perp isn't a sociopath. There is a clear ethical difference that we can all see. Imposition like that is unacceptable in society.

then why are different "cultural" or "religious" impositions acceptable?

quote: Enough time to make a difference...

not true.

quote: If I thought the UN would do an inferior job, I would not suggest it is allowed to run Iraq. I believe it will do a superior job, so your point is defunct.

Ok, point taken, though you still haven't shown me why would I think that the UN will do a superior job.

quote: You are a consequentialist are you not?

Yes, so what ? What are the consequences I must fear so much? That Iraq will become more peaceful? Oh noes.

	19-03-2004 02:55									#100
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Japher, of course. Project Manager takes the responsibility. Don't forget, Poland was told it was sure there are WMDs. Remember, I like the US most of other countries and I support the action. Why would I say this?

	19-03-2004 02:57									#101
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And then again, I think Poland should stay just because it's military alliance and I believe if you're allied, you go to the bitter end. That's why I don't like alliances, because they're BS and everyone brakes their word. Better not to allie with no one. Except if you're ready to go the full 9 yards.

	19-03-2004 02:58									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Japher The US was taken for a ride too, along with the British and the rest of the coalition that was fueled by Iraq foreign nationals and deserters... Thus, it's the Iraq's fault afterall... But let's just blame Bush, it's so much easier, and a lot more fun!

Obviously, the Bushies trusted them blindly, and they were perfectly right in engaging a war on those people that just had to be extremely trustworthy.

I just have found how to dispose of my old enemy the Tuvalu

	19-03-2004 02:59									#103
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For the love of God people! Even France thought they had weapons.

	19-03-2004 03:04									#104
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As for Krasnievski excuse for the withdrawal, I wouldn't consider Poland to be honest in this regard. Poland used to have an egotist as Prime Minister, who rejected Chirac's will to power over Europe, and who wanted to make sure Poland is on the American side. There was disagreement about it within the government (IIUC, Krasniewski was very unhappy about it), but the Prime Minister's proposal to go along with the US won in the end, because Poland definitely was scared of ending up on a side where Russia was starring.

This decision brought Poland under the spotlights of international geopolitics. Just the same as Spain, this relatively minor country enjoyed an immense prestige compared to what it was accustomed to. This emboldened the Spaniards and the Poles to reject the European constitution, that would reduce their weights in the EU.

Now, said Prime Minister is gone after the European Constitution failure, and Krasniewski is stuck with the ****-stick. He has understood how much rampage the Iraqi war has done to the PP in Spain, and he most likely doesn't want his own reign to end up like that.

It is power politics like usual. The lack of WMDs is a problem only in that the coalition's governments can't justify their war to the public opinion.

	19-03-2004 03:05									#105
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DD, true, but that's not the point. The point is, US took the lead. Either a) you need to choose better allies next time or b) accept that not everyone is willing to go all the way. Poland is not very rich country, US spends lots of money in Iraq, for the good of Iraqi people now. Poland can't afford to do much. Now that the highest priority is out of the picture, they can just pack up their stuff and leave. It sucks, but then again they have the right to leave. Maybe that's bad alliance and not cool, but they can decide for themselves.

	19-03-2004 03:06									#106
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc For the love of God people! Even France thought they had weapons.

Yep. But we never believe Iraq posed any imminent threat. The US rejected to give six more months to the inspectors based on the imminence of the threat

	19-03-2004 03:14									#107
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And this is exactly why I don't believe in EU defense either. There are only few relations in this world that are true alliances. US and UK is one. Papers are papers. They can be written and they can be torn. Alliance must exist in the hearts of men and leaders needs to have balls of steel. It must be in the name of solidarity and you must stand next to your brother in either victory, or fall together in the same lines.

And for the rest that shows up.. just gotta be grateful for the things they do, even if they quit before you do. That's what I think and it applies in general in life in most situations.

	19-03-2004 03:17									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yep.

Thank you for backing me up.

	19-03-2004 03:19									#109
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Thank you for backing me up.

As you may have noticed in my posts, I share with you a quite cynical view of international relations. In this very thread, I challenge Poland's sincerity, despite my willingness to gloat as a leftie.

	19-03-2004 03:20									#110
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And that is why you must put everyone in disgrace and embrace Finland. We keep our word as it is the only thing we have. Thus, we don't make alliances easily if at all. But we promise this, we defend ourselves against any aggression, domestic of foreign until the last man has fallen. We are great allies but then again it's not easy to gain.

btw, the opinion joining NATO is getting bigger than refusing.. still refusing side is bigger but opinions are getting more to no EU defense, yes NATO. I didn't want us to join NATO at one point because there's nothing we would benefit from it so why should we, but I think we should be in some military alliance, and EU is not it, so I guess NATO would be good instead.

	19-03-2004 03:21									#111
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I think the lesson to be learned here is that if you are in violation of UN treaties and the US gets attacked while a Texan is in office, you damn well better cooperate instead of pssy-footing the issues and assinating all your people...

	19-03-2004 03:23									#112
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Japher, that's a good lesson though. And look the positive sides to it. There was a coalition against Saddam and WMD. So clearly something was common and still is. It's just that some of the countries are starting to go back home too early.

	19-03-2004 03:26									#113
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"It's just that some of the countries are starting to go back home too early."

I remember everyone yelling at the US' post-war stratagies, saying that they make promises and then leave the people to succumb to that which we attempt to free them from.

Then, shortly there after, I heard everyone critize the US for sitting around in Iraq for too long.

Now, I hear, US needs to get out of Iraq, we are leaving so should you.

Hypocracy at it's finest.

I think we'll make up our own mind, since no one is capable of doing so.

	19-03-2004 03:32									#114
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We did not give democracy to South Korea. We gave them th Rhee dictatoship which slaughtered over 100,000 Koreans. The RoK only became a democracy in the 1990s. The same with most of our East Asian clients: Taiwan, Indonesia. The Philippeans became a democracy inspite of our support of their dicator, Marcos. We only stopped backing him when it became obvious in the last six hours of his raeign he couldn't maintain control. Only in Japan did we delver on democracy. Our record in Asia is very poor. If Vietnam became a democracy, it would be inspite of us, not because of us.

Was this a serious post? Or did you just feel like spouting blatant propoganda?

With regard to Korea, and us "giving" them the Rhee dictatorship

http://www.korea.net/learnaboutkore...ntemporary.html


Pursuant to a United Nations resolution, general elections were held on May 10, 1948, in the southern half of the peninsula (North Korea refused UN supervised elections). A constituent national assembly was formed through the elections and the constitution was framed based on democratic principles. The National Assembly then elected Dr. Syngman Rhee as the first president of the republic. He formed the government and promulgated the birth of the Republic of Korea on August 15, 1948, after three years of U.S. military government.

Why do leftists always equate being allied to a country as as imposing a government upon them?

With regard to Taiwan, we were helping the legitimate Chinese government that was recognized internationally, even by the USSR, and against what was basically a monster State in the PRC which under Mao would be one of the bloodiest and repressive governemnts in history.

Indonesia was originally a pro-Soviet state. We did not impose the dictatorship upon them, rather the local military couped after many of its senior leaders were killed by Communist gunmen.

In the Phillipines, we gave them a democracy, and the Phillipines experienced a temporary dictatorship of someone who couped after being democraticaly elected.

	19-03-2004 03:33									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Japher "It's just that some of the countries are starting to go back home too early." I remember everyone yelling at the US' post-war stratagies, saying that they make promises and then leave the people to succumb to that which we attempt to free them from. Then, shortly there after, I heard everyone critize the US for sitting around in Iraq for too long. Now, I hear, US needs to get out of Iraq, we are leaving so should you. Hypocracy at it's finest.

I don't know. Individual lefties have different concerns. I personally was (and remain) against the war. However, once the wrong was done, it was needed to repair the mess. I never opposed occupation, and I couldn't envision the US leaving Iraq anytime soon, unless the authority gets tranferred to the UN (and the US assumes its fair share of the peackeeping after that anyway).

I suppose other individuals on the left held a consistent point of view as well. One can be consistent if one thought from the beginning the US should just leave the Iraqis alone.

	19-03-2004 03:34									#116
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Lets give this a go yet again:

The "experiment" of making Iraq into a democracy will be a decade project at least-probably longer, assuming it does not fall apart, and not even contemplating it becoming some "shinning beacon" but isntead, like many nations in Asia and Latin America, a democracy feeling it's way around and having missteps here or there.

NOw, how long does your average national government last? Any action based on shared political interests by a grouping of governments-specially actions that are not unquestionably crucial for national security or survival are bound to be messy, if not fall apart as that common political aggreement fades, either with time, or as governments change in each member. This is why making the action part of the international legal framework is crucial-it removes important decisions form transiatory political groups- it removes a large part of the urge to make decisions based on desired political gains nationally-it makes it so costs can be shared, and burdens moved as each member state sees changes to how much they can, or care to contribute.

For this simple reason this mission needs to be given to the UN- as I said before-if it is so damned important, it can't be run based on the today political needs of the members-that is a recipe for danger.

	19-03-2004 03:35									#117
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Japher, selective hearing at its best.

I have heard no one saying you're sitting there for too long. I heard no one saying you should get out of there.

Like you said you make up your own mind, so does Poland.

Notice, I'm criticizing Poland here, not the US. But I guess they made up their mind.

	19-03-2004 03:36									#118
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at Shi and his statements about RoK as a democracy!

Guess he is too young to remember the 1988 Summer Olympics in S.Korea.

	19-03-2004 03:41									#119
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quote: Japher, selective hearing at its best. I have heard no one saying you're sitting there for too long. I heard no one saying you should get out of there.

We suffer the same maladay...

I won't critize Poland unless the turn the tables as it appears Spain wants to do. I am done critizing Germany and France on the matter because the stuck to their guns.

The last thing we need, as a world community, is wishy-washy stances on issues that affect us all.

Do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that is what it feels like to be America... in regards to the desires of other nations. No wonder our foreign policy is so F'd up. We put it in place at the request of others, only to have it second guessed after it's done. While the blame is ours it is not for acting (more like reacting).

	19-03-2004 03:47									#120
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Japher, yeah but I wouldn't blame Spain either. They have different people in power now, and I wouldn't go blaming the people they can do what they want so.. and they never backed the war 100%, the people I mean..

But yeah I think some determined thinking here would have been nice. But that's the ultimate price for being the only superpower though.. everyone has an opinion about things and they're alwyas wrong and right the same time depending who you ask from.

But that's the way it goes. Boss takes the hits. You know it's like that, it sucks but that's the way it is. It would be nice for the team to share the blows though. And I don't agree with the countries pulling back now, don't get me wrong there, I'm just saying I understand and they have their own reasons. Poland has its own reasons we might not understand, and I think we should just respect it, they showed up and shared the work load a bit and it was good until it lasted you know..