19-03-2004 01:47									#61
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quote: Afghanistan isn't a fair comparison. It has NOTHING. absolutely NOTHING. It will certainly take a LOT of time to build it. I actually think that the US' grade on Afghanistan is fair.

It has nothing? It has much cultural capital. Look at what it was like before the '70s. Nonetheless, Iraq is easier than Afghanistan, and yet it's still screwed up!!!

quote: I wouldn't trust the US to be the world's policeman. It is terribly biased, no doubt. But it seems to be willing to do good in Afghanistan, and in Iraq. I say we should let it. The Americans want the Iraqi oil? The Iraqis wouldn't care who'll build it, and who will they get the dividents from. (And saying that a UN administration won't give away nice condition is at best wishful thinking. Would YOU place an investment in current Iraq, unless you had some nice conditions?)

Really? I thought the US was doing it because they were genuinely nice people... . I'm more concerned about the general precident it sets, no one nation should be allowed to dominate the world like that. The PNAC calls it benevolent hegemony. I call it dangerous. If the USA wants to help, then fine. It should not impose that help upon others. You of all people should understand that .

quote: So once again. World's policeman? no way. But for THIS PARTICULAR CAUSE, and since it's not like we have someone better for the job, anyway, I say, it's ok.

Technically, the British would be better at the job, since the institutions of centuries of nation building are still in place, and I dare say a more agreeable culture with the Iraqi's, as seen in places like Basra for the most part. A British-led UN task force would be perfect...

	19-03-2004 01:48									#62
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We did not give democracy to South Korea. We gave them th Rhee dictatoship which slaughtered over 100,000 Koreans. The RoK only became a democracy in the 1990s. The same with most of our East Asian clients: Taiwan, Indonesia. The Philippeans became a democracy inspite of our support of their dicator, Marcos. We only stopped backing him when it became obvious in the last six hours of his raeign he couldn't maintain control. Only in Japan did we delver on democracy. Our record in Asia is very poor. If Vietnam became a democracy, it would be inspite of us, not because of us.

yes yes the US sucks. point still stands. vietnam would have been better off fighting for the other side.

	19-03-2004 01:49									#63
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quote: I'm not going to let u drag me into relativism. sorry go take ur "no point is valid" troll elsewhere.

Awww but how am I supposed to enjoy my evening?

Seriously though, the logic applies, and thus far you havent refuted it.

	19-03-2004 01:50									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Awww but how am I supposed to enjoy my evening? Seriously though, the logic applies, and thus far you havent refuted it.

I'm not touching relativistic logic w/ a 50 foot pole. now go away.

	19-03-2004 01:52									#65
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And yes, Vietnam would have been better off fighting for the other side. Just like the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto.

	19-03-2004 01:53									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy And yes, Vietnam would have been better off fighting for the other side. Just like the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto.

yes because america's plan was to exterminate the vietnamese.

for being a relativist u sure give piss poor analogies.

	19-03-2004 01:53									#67
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quote: I'm not touching relativistic logic w/ a 50 foot pole. now go away.

Why not?

	19-03-2004 01:53									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Goddamn, people are so blinded by their hatred of the US, they're fully willing to sacrifice the fait of the iraqi people to see the US fail. It's all quite sad really. Do you know what will happen If the US will fail in Iraq? complete and utter chaos. Unimaginable suffering. What would happen if the US would succeed? only good stuff, in comparison to what exists there today. But I guess when you're foaming at the mouth, and your only consideration is the failure of the US, none of this matters.

I wish the US manages to get a good diplomat that will establish a coalition on the aims of stabilty and nation-building, instead of trying to lure allies in with corruption or false promises of reward.

I for one would be glad if my country could help the Nation building in Iraq. But that would require the premise that Washington stops to consider its potential allies as simpletons.

	19-03-2004 01:54									#69
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quote: for being a relativist u sure give piss poor analogies.

Do explain!

	19-03-2004 01:54									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Why not?

because relativism is ur constant meta-argument. u have real arguments and u have relativism. stick to real arguments and stop shoving that crap down ppl's throats.

its tiring and played out. "ur wrong because everyone's opinion is equally invalid!" hahahahah *dances irish jig*

	19-03-2004 01:54									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Why not?

What makes your point any more valid than his?

	19-03-2004 01:55									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Do explain!

comparing american involvement in vietnam to the nazi involvement w/ the jews IS A PISS POOR ANALOGY.

its not so much explaining as completing the sentence.

	19-03-2004 01:57									#73
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quote: because relativism is ur constant meta-argument. u have real arguments and u have relativism. stick to real arguments and stop shoving that crap down ppl's throats. its tiring and played out. "ur wrong because everyone's opinion is equally invalid!" hahahahah *dances irish jig*

Hardly. I'm showing why your argument of your view being more valid than theirs does not hold water. Sure they may have been better off but that doesnt mean they should have done as you now wish they'd have done.

I believe that counts as a formal fallacy.

In other words, my point is well within the grounds of answering your point. However, it's all spam, and I'm too tired to argue around in circles with you. Back on the block list!

	19-03-2004 01:59									#74
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon point still stands. vietnam would have been better off fighting for the other side.

You can't say that for sure. We can't even say what the probabilty is. There is every chance it could have ended up as poor and messed up as Indonesia or the Philippines. Especially after the massive damage to the countryside from the bombing and spraying.

	19-03-2004 01:59									#75
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quote: What makes your point any more valid than his?

It doesn't, unless you're looking at arguments in terms of critical errors.

quote: comparing american involvement in vietnam to the nazi involvement w/ the jews IS A PISS POOR ANALOGY.

Why? I think its a perfectly valid argument. Don't look at it with the tinted glasses of histories winners and losers, look at the event itself. In terms of what we're dealing with here, how is it different? It's a suicidal altercation against superior odds is it not?

	19-03-2004 02:00									#76
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quote: You have no answered my point that your view has not got necessarily more validity than another, where they are based on different sets of premises and we are dealing with a set of premises that differ from your own. Basic logic.

Yep. basic logic.

	19-03-2004 02:00									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Hardly. I'm showing why your argument of your view being more valid than theirs does not hold water. Sure they may have been better off but that doesnt mean they should have done as you now wish they'd have done. I believe that counts as a formal fallacy. In other words, my point is well within the grounds of answering your point. However, it's all spam, and I'm too tired to argue around in circles with you. Back on the block list!

they want the things we have. if they had not kicked our asses it is much more likely they would have those things.

I see no fallacy there. I also particularly like how ppl who don't entertain ur vapid and meaningless arguments of relativism go on ur block list. or how this is like the 18th time I've been put on it. have some ****ing back bone u simpleton. keep me on it this time.

	19-03-2004 02:01									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy It doesn't,

Then if your arguement isn't any more valid than his, why bother annoying him with it?

	19-03-2004 02:02									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy It doesn't, unless you're looking at arguments in terms of critical errors. Why? I think its a perfectly valid argument. Don't look at it with the tinted glasses of histories winners and losers, look at the event itself. In terms of what we're dealing with here, how is it different? It's a suicidal altercation against superior odds is it not?

because ostensibly we wanted to help the vietnamese. whether we were successful or good at it is different. the germans WANTED TO KILL EVERY LAST JEW THAT EXISTED.

I think that is a significant enough difference to invalidate ur sadass analogy.

	19-03-2004 02:02									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You must be joking. They [the Vietnamese] still gloat about handing you your asses.

They?

Ask the Montegnards. Ask the Catholics. Ask the Buddists. Ask the Hmong. As the people who fled in their boats. As the refugees and their children in America.

	19-03-2004 02:04									#81
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What we need now is for Kerry and Dean to themselves call for a unilateral withdrawal from Iraq. If the international community will no longer support the effort, why should we do it alone?

	19-03-2004 02:05									#82
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quote: they want the things we have. if they had not kicked our asses it is much more likely they would have those things

Ergo they should not have kicked your arse? Rome and the Barbarians.... the uprisings against Saddam in the early 90's... the list goes on.

quote: Yep. basic logic.

Thanks

	19-03-2004 02:06									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Ergo they should not have kicked your arse? Rome and the Barbarians.... the uprisings against Saddam in the early 90's... the list goes on. Thanks

ergo they should have fought on our side. and u promised to block me? Obviously it is not beyond a relativist to lie.

	19-03-2004 02:09									#84
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quote: Then if your arguement isn't any more valid than his, why bother annoying him with it?

Hardly. If he doesn't like it, then he doesn't have to answer it. We'll all grown up here.

quote: because ostensibly we wanted to help the vietnamese. whether we were successful or good at it is different. the germans WANTED TO KILL EVERY LAST JEW THAT EXISTED.

You see "help" is a funny one because at the point of delivery it wasn't. The next few years bear me out on that one. Unless the ends of defeat of communism justifies means history has generally viewed as a disaster?

	19-03-2004 02:10									#85
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quote: ergo they should have fought on our side. and u promised to block me? Obviously it is not beyond a relativist to lie.

Relativism is a simple device. It does not dictate a personality. I have blocked you now if that makes you happy until you can enter a debate with civility and respect for the opposing view.

	19-03-2004 02:11									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Hardly. If he doesn't like it, then he doesn't have to answer it. We'll all grown up here. You see "help" is a funny one because at the point of delivery it wasn't. The next few years bear me out on that one. Unless the ends of defeat of communism justifies means history has generally viewed as a disaster?

dinodoc question was why do u ask, NOT why do I answer. do relativists learn comprehension skills? or does it not matter because all interpretations are equally valid?

I agree it was a disaster. for the vietnamese. the americans went home and experienced a growing and powerful economy. the vietnamese went home and experienced oppression.

	19-03-2004 02:12									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Relativism is a simple device. It does not dictate a personality. I have blocked you now if that makes you happy until you can enter a debate with civility and respect for the opposing view.

I hope I didn't make u cry.

btw I'm almost positive u said the exact same thing to me before. so I'm going to have to hold u to this one.

	19-03-2004 02:21									#88
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Just so that you know, Whaleboy thinks there is no ethical difference between helping old ladies cross the road, and eating babies. It all depends on "different postulates, and points of view".

God, I hate postmodernist bullshit.

quote: It has nothing? It has much cultural capital.

quote: Look at what it was like before the '70s. Nonetheless, Iraq is easier than Afghanistan, and yet it's still screwed up!!!

And there have been there how long exactly?

quote: Really? I thought the US was doing it because they were genuinely nice people... . I'm more concerned about the general precident it sets, no one nation should be allowed to dominate the world like that. The PNAC calls it benevolent hegemony. I call it dangerous. If the USA wants to help, then fine. It should not impose that help upon others.

So, you're willing to sacrifice the fait of the Iraqi people in order to prevent some unseen danger? You sound like Rummy.

quote: You of all people should understand that .

Why's that.

quote: Technically, the British would be better at the job, since the institutions of centuries of nation building are still in place, and I dare say a more agreeable culture with the Iraqi's, as seen in places like Basra for the most part. A British-led UN task force would be perfect...

I didn't know that the brits were close to the ME mentality.
Anyway, can I accept this humorous reply as an admission to a conceded point?

	19-03-2004 02:23									#89
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"Coolitions of the Willing" are inherently shaky- If Iraq is so damned important, why leave it in the hands of a transiatory grouping of states and not make it a global task?

	19-03-2004 02:26									#90
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"Coolitions"


The problem with "coalitions of the willing" isn't that they're "transiatory", but that they have interests. The same problem will exist with a "global taskforce". It won't be truly global, but more like "dividing the pie"