19-03-2004 03:54									#121
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Spain
Poland

now, everyone else please follow suit and leave and let the US clean up it's own mess.

Europe

	19-03-2004 03:55									#122
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quote: now, everyone else please follow suit and leave and let the US clean up it's own mess

and shut up about it too...

	19-03-2004 03:56									#123
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quote: Originally posted by GePap As for it being not trully global-what is "trully global"? According to the US the Solomon Islands are part of this darned coalition-what the hell are they doing? Dividing the pie is exactly what needs to happen here, the pie of responsibilities.

Given that parts of the Solomon Islands were until last year largely ungovernable, who knows....

http://www.ausaid.gov.au/hottopics/..._2398_2240_1375

Perhaps they were denying passports to Ba'ath Party members.

I love Shi's potted history of South East and East Asia- an object lesson in getting as many mistakes as possible into one small rant.

	19-03-2004 04:06									#124
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No, we should help the US with Iraq now, or we can't say anything about it in the future. We had the right, I mean the ones who participated in action, had the right to complain what ever the wanted because they were part of it. But now is THE MOST important face of it all, the building of Iraq and if we leave now, we can't say crap about it anymore. And let's not forget, the US tax payers pay a long penny for helping Iraq now, and we should contribute. Why? Because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

	19-03-2004 04:20									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Spain Poland now, everyone else please follow suit and leave and let the US clean up it's own mess. Europe

thats awfully compassionate of u.

	19-03-2004 04:24									#126
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Well, the war is history now, and it would be utterly unfair and short-sighted to withdraw the troops now.

BUT

America has to understand that this has to be the last piece of unilateral meddling that they can do for a long time. Next time, whatever America does, they should have no help whatsoever from the UN and the world. Otherwise we'll just get locked in a cycle of cleaning up after America indefinitely.

	19-03-2004 04:28									#127
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quote: Otherwise we'll just get locked in a cycle of cleaning up after America indefinitely.

Yeah, because cleaning up after the Brits, French, Germans, Japanesse, Russians, Italians, and Chinesse has gotten a little old.

	19-03-2004 04:41									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Yeah, because cleaning up after the Brits, French, Germans, Japanesse, Russians, Italians, and Chinesse has gotten a little old.

Yeah, especially in Nicaragua, Guatemala, Honduras, Liberia, the Dominican Republic, the Philippines, Panama, Cuba, Chile, Venezuela, Haiti, the Lebanon, Somalia, Angola, Namibia, Mozambique, South Africa, Iran, Viet Nam, Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos- well, anywhere that American foreign policy and practice and intervention has proven itself entirely indistinguishable from 'old' European realpolitik and imperialism.

'The cause of all mankind is the cause of America... we are responsible for the maintenance of freedom all around the world.'

Strangely enough, not Reagan, but John F. Kennedy. Who knew he was so fond of irony?

	19-03-2004 05:42									#129
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Jesus, Al Qaeda's victory keeps becoming more and more impressive and you ignorant ****s are celebrating it. Disgusting...

	19-03-2004 07:10									#130
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quote: Originally posted by GePap For this simple reason this mission needs to be given to the UN- as I said before-if it is so damned important, it can't be run based on the today political needs of the members-that is a recipe for danger.

I too would be in favor of turning the "policing" of Iraq over to the UN. As we pull out, our own units would be replaced with UN troops -- wait, the UN has no troops, and the portion of Europe that did support us is not withdrawing its troops under pressure from al Qaeda. So, where is this UN going to get its troops?

Any ideas, GePap?

	19-03-2004 07:12									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Spain Poland now, everyone else please follow suit and leave and let the US clean up it's own mess. Europe

Hold on there, Saint Marcus. Kerry want to dump it in your laps. He insists that if he is elected, we can pull a lot of our forces out of Iraq and replace them with European troops.

Is he a fool?

	19-03-2004 07:15									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Well, the war is history now, and it would be utterly unfair and short-sighted to withdraw the troops now. BUT America has to understand that this has to be the last piece of unilateral meddling that they can do for a long time. Next time, whatever America does, they should have no help whatsoever from the UN and the world. Otherwise we'll just get locked in a cycle of cleaning up after America indefinitely.

What do you mean by unilateral? We simply did not get France's vote at the UN. We did have a significant coalition --

oh wait, that's right, they were a coalition of the coerced, bribed and are only windowdressing according to John Kerry.

	19-03-2004 08:55									#133
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" at Shi and his statements about RoK as a democracy!"

Certainly Korea ended up as a dictatorship. But that wasn't how we set it up.

	19-03-2004 08:58									#134
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Circlejerk threads are awesome!

So true, so true.

	19-03-2004 09:40									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Certainly Korea ended up as a dictatorship. But that wasn't how we set it up.

NO, we set up the machinery of democracy without anything else, and when it quickly failed and a one party state came into power, we did nothing about it.

	19-03-2004 09:51									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Spain Poland now, everyone else please follow suit and leave and let the US clean up it's own mess. Europe

Cool.

I think the US should have left Europe to clean up its mess for say, oh, the entire last century.

Maybe Europe could have pushed the death toll to 500 million.

You're welcome.

	19-03-2004 10:05									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed why are we happy about poland possibly pulling out early? that means more americans will have to die instead.

Why should be happy for them to stay. That means it's just some poles dying, when it could be americans.


Wouldn't want that!

	19-03-2004 13:45									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Hold on there, Saint Marcus. Kerry want to dump it in your laps. He insists that if he is elected, we can pull a lot of our forces out of Iraq and replace them with European troops. Is he a fool?

Nope. Marcus isn't representative of European views, especially not of European governments' views. There can be a strong European commitment in Iraq, but the transfer of authority to the UN is seen as a necessity.

	19-03-2004 14:11									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Nope. Marcus isn't representative of European views, especially not of European governments' views. There can be a strong European commitment in Iraq, but the transfer of authority to the UN is seen as a necessity.

I think we would all appreciate European support. We just don't trust you to actually send troops or money if we turn matters over to the UN.

What might be a good compromise would be to gradually turn areas over to the UN. We pull out Coalition troops under US command to be replaced by UN troops. The first "UN Troops" could be the Brits and the Poles and the other forces operating under them.

In the end, I suspect the UN will not do much and will leave the bulk of the operation to the US.

	19-03-2004 14:24									#140
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Germany wouldn't send troops no matter what, not only because it doesn't wish to, but also because it doesn't have them, to begin with. Mind you that we quietly replaced US troops whereever they had to leave while preparing for the invasion of Iraq, be it in Kosovo or Afghanistan. This and the granting of passage rights (which were denied you by other countries, by the way) was our way to help. The rantings and insults by your nutjobs in power are thus not very appreciated and have lead to an increasing anti-american stance hereabouts. Our army isn't very big and was restricted over decades to nerf its mobility and ability to act autonomous. This was changed by the return of full sovereignty in the 90's, but the necessary reforms will take a while.

	19-03-2004 14:48									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Germany wouldn't send troops no matter what, not only because it doesn't wish to, but also because it doesn't have them, to begin with. Mind you that we quietly replaced US troops whereever they had to leave while preparing for the invasion of Iraq, be it in Kosovo or Afghanistan. This and the granting of passage rights (which were denied you by other countries, by the way) was our way to help. The rantings and insults by your nutjobs in power are thus not very appreciated and have lead to an increasing anti-american stance hereabouts. Our army isn't very big and was restricted over decades to nerf its mobility and ability to act autonomous. This was changed by the return of full sovereignty in the 90's, but the necessary reforms will take a while.

Thanks for the information on your support. It is not well known here for some reason. There is no doubt that if Germany's support were better known, there would be an instantaneous upwelling of pro-German feeling here.

	19-03-2004 15:03									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Nope. Marcus isn't representative of European views, especially not of European governments' views. There can be a strong European commitment in Iraq, but the transfer of authority to the UN is seen as a necessity.

You want to transfer authority to these people?

	19-03-2004 16:17									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Afghanistan isn't a fair comparison. It has NOTHING. absolutely NOTHING. It will certainly take a LOT of time to build it. I actually think that the US' grade on Afghanistan is fair.

Cambodia isn't that better off than Afghanistan, either. There was a civil war, some sort of reign of terror, then some Vietnamese invasion. Other than having better land than the Afganis, I reckon their initial conditions were more or less on the same level.

	19-03-2004 16:27									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Spain Poland now, everyone else please follow suit and leave and let the US clean up it's own mess. Europe

How is Iraq solely the responsibility of the US?

Saddam Hussein was very much a product of the West, aping Western ideas like Stalinism (Western from his point of view), paid for by huge loans from France, Germany, the US and (shame!) the UK.

In fact, Israel was do dischuffed by the whole lot of us paying for the butchery and death they bombed the crap out of the nuclear reactors the French (?) had recently "sold" him. (Hey! We'll lend you money if you spend it on our products!"

Your view is narrow, your knowledge of recent history is almost immeasurably small, and you seem happy to blame anyone for what is without doubt a problem of COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY. Oh yes, I see you list "US bashing" as a hobby.

Now go and look up how many torture implements have been exported by Western countries to other places, and work out how many Saddam's there are...

And WHY should you? Because the bottom line that the REASON for a lot of these inhuman brutalities is...

ROYAL DUTCH SHELL! : : :

	19-03-2004 16:32									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka To call them traitors and weak is STUPID. That's how you turn your friends against you. It's only logical. WMDs -> let's roll. No WMDs? Let's get out.

What happened to you? You are being reasonable, Pekka.

	19-03-2004 16:37									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy How is Iraq solely the responsibility of the US?

Looks like to me a case of "you made the mess, you clean it up."

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Saddam Hussein was very much a product of the West, aping Western ideas like Stalinism (Western from his point of view), paid for by huge loans from France, Germany, the US and (shame!) the UK.

The CIA had a hand in helping the Ba'ath Party to rise to power, and the US helped Saddam in the war against Iran. Rummy shaked hand with Saddam, and he got anthrax and other fun stuff from the CDC.

Saddam had been a murderous bastard all along. The difference is, of course, he was US's murderous bastard.

	19-03-2004 16:38									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You must be joking. They still gloat about handing you your asses.

Are they gloating about the 20+ to 1 kill ratio too?

	19-03-2004 16:39									#148
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You can't say that for sure. We can't even say what the probabilty is. There is every chance it could have ended up as poor and messed up as Indonesia or the Philippines. Especially after the massive damage to the countryside from the bombing and spraying.

Which we obviously wouldn't have done had they been on our side.

	19-03-2004 16:55									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Are they gloating about the 20+ to 1 kill ration too?

Hot damn. A lot of civilians got killed.

	19-03-2004 17:06									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Hot damn. A lot of civilians got killed.

You just don't lead them as much.