20-03-2004 22:27									#91
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Just a small example: in Europe, many shops just don't give you plastic bags.

This is true. The last shop that gave me a plastic bag was when I bought a sweater at Gap before Xmas. Buy a cloth bag in the shop, make do with a paper bag or take a basket/bag with you.

-Jam

	20-03-2004 23:36									#92
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Jamski I just prefer to buy shoes in a shoe shop, where I get my feet measured, and the assistant talks to me about what looks good, and we have a chat, and she offers me 5% off... Or to buy books in a bookshop, and if they don't have the one I want, I can order it, and I can ask the assistant if author X has written anymore books about Y... Or to buy cheese from the cheese store, and know its going to taste great, because the man let me taste it first. Or to by wine from the wine store and ask the man there what's good with bacon, and he'll tell me X, and I say that's too expensive, and he says "how about this one" and I say, that looks good, and he offers me a taste, and we agree it is good.

That's my dream world.

I have an article I left at work on my wall of . Basically it discussed the inferior quality of food found in America and the impact upon the overall health well-being of Americans versus to Europeans' williness to spend more for quality foodstuff. I don't have the exact numbers right now but on average, most West Europeans spend at around 10% of their annual income on food. While in the States, your average American shell out at around 3% of their annual income on cheap processed brand toxic junk.

	20-03-2004 23:43									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DataAeolus Young Skywalker here (Kucinich) is a product of mall consumer culture - don't blame him. He has been brainwashed.

I just want to get the most for my money. Screw my community

	20-03-2004 23:45									#94
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen I wont buy any clothes made in a sweatshop, if that is what you mean.... so basically nothing made in asia, or south america...

I bet those people who made the clothes are happy. I mean, if they weren't working for those corporations they could be making so much more money!

	20-03-2004 23:47									#95
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich I bet those people who made the clothes are happy. I mean, if they weren't working for those corporations they could be making so much more money!

Yes, like slaves should be thankful to their masters for giving them food and roof.

	20-03-2004 23:48									#96
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Jamski People who live within a Walmart "sink" have my sympathy. I'm just glad that in Europe people are still prepared to. a)Pay more for better products b)Pay more for better service

People in the US are willing to do so too. However, I'm not willing to pay more for equal or lesser products.

	20-03-2004 23:49									#97
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Yes, like slaves should be thankful to their masters for giving them food and roof.

These people aren't slaves, so your analogy fails.

	20-03-2004 23:57									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich These people aren't slaves, so your analogy fails.

They basically are. The only difference is that they are forced to work through economic force rather than brute force.

I mean, really. They're working 16 hours a day in a factory, and still live in absolute poverty, and you think they should be thankful?

	21-03-2004 00:03									#99
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If there were better alternatives... they would take them. But those jobs are the best they can get... and pay them more than the alternatives. People are lining up to get those "bad" jobs... It's all relative.

	21-03-2004 00:05									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ming If there were better alternatives... they would take them. But those jobs are the best they can get

Isn't that what I just said?

	21-03-2004 00:08									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd They basically are. The only difference is that they are forced to work through economic force rather than brute force.

The company chooses to offer jobs to these people. Those people choose to accept. Would you be happier if the company decided NOT to employ those people at all?

More importantly, would those people be happier?

quote: I mean, really. They're working 16 hours a day in a factory, and still live in absolute poverty, and you think they should be thankful?

Yes, since their condition without the company would be worse than their condition with the company.

	21-03-2004 01:16									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: The company chooses to offer jobs to these people. Those people choose to accept.

How diverse do you think the job market is. What other jobs are available to these people?

quote: Yes, since their condition without the company would be worse than their condition with the company.

And yet their condition still completely sucks. Again - it's a case of slaves being told they should be thankful for the generous handouts of their masters.

	21-03-2004 01:20									#103
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: Originally posted by General Ludd They basically are. The only difference is that they are forced to work through economic force rather than brute force. The company chooses to offer jobs to these people. Those people choose to accept. Would you be happier if the company decided NOT to employ those people at all? More importantly, would those people be happier? quote: I mean, really. They're working 16 hours a day in a factory, and still live in absolute poverty, and you think they should be thankful? Yes, since their condition without the company would be worse than their condition with the company.

What should be done is this: American companies should be required to treat their overseas peons... err workers as they would an American employee in the States. Benefits, wages that are approirate for their living cost standards and so on. This won't solve the leakage of jobs from the States to other countries but at least this would be more fair and less of an exploitation.

	21-03-2004 01:35									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd How diverse do you think the job market is. What other jobs are available to these people?

What's the point? The company doesn't have to offer them the job at all.

quote: And yet their condition still completely sucks. Again - it's a case of slaves being told they should be thankful for the generous handouts of their masters.

If the "slaves" willingly came and were provided with better food and living conditions, then yes, they should be thankful

It's not like the companies have to employ them at all.

	21-03-2004 01:35									#105
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by DataAeolus What should be done is this: American companies should be required to treat their overseas peons... err workers as they would an American employee in the States. Benefits, wages that are approirate for their living cost standards and so on. This won't solve the leakage of jobs from the States to other countries but at least this would be more fair and less of an exploitation.

Then the companies probably won't employ those people at all, and they'll be worse off... I'm sure those people will be REALLY happy about losing there jobs because you didn't want them to be "exploited"

	21-03-2004 01:36									#106
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Yes, since their condition without the company would be worse than their condition with the company.

Spare us that BS, will you? What would be the company's condition without the people working for them?

	21-03-2004 01:48									#107
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The company should also be thankful for the workers, of course. My point is that WE shouldn't complain about this. If the workers want to complain, they can - by striking or passing laws requiring a minimum wage.

	21-03-2004 01:52									#108
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: More importantly, would those people be happier?

This is happening in places where people have lived without any sort of sweat-shop jobs for millions of years.

I admittedly don't know much about the circumstances ('cause frankly I've never been inclined to learn about the subject - enlighten me if you actually know what you're talking about) and I'm sure it varies from place to place, but this is happening in places where people have lived happily for millions of years before sweat-shops existed - obviously, something has changed their society so that they can no longer be self sufficient and now have to rely on the "charitable" hand-outs of their first world masters, in exchange for repetious 16-hour a day work in conditions which are illegal in the countries of their employers.

	21-03-2004 01:58									#109
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The "something" that has changed has been that they were offered jobs by the corporations.

They lived as poorly, or worse, before, because they were essentially a primitive civilization. You wouldn't say the ancient Greeks and Romans lived in poverty, even though their conditions were horrific compared to now, would you?

	21-03-2004 02:04									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: They lived as poorly, or worse

They wheren't working in a sweatshop 16 hours a day.


Describe a worse life then that.

	21-03-2004 02:05									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

If the sweatshop is worse than what they had before, why did they decide to work in the sweatshop?

	21-03-2004 02:20									#112
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich If the sweatshop is worse than what they had before, why did they decide to work in the sweatshop?

Well, let's take the example of the luddites ( ) - some of the first people to fall victim to this. They where weavers and farmers, and lived decent lives untill factories where opened up which they couldn't compete with. So now they where out of the job, and the only options where to be locked in a factory 16 hours a day for a meager wage they could barely live off, or... well, nothing. The luddites took your advice of "If the workers want to complain, they can - by striking or passing laws requiring a minimum wage." they demanded that the machines where outlawed, and when they wheren't they 'striked' out and destroyed the machines that where taking away their livelyhood and turning self-sustained people into wage-slaves. The result? The army was sent out to kill them.

	21-03-2004 03:19									#113
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: mom'n'pap shop suck. They suck from a consumer's pov, they suck from society's pov. They ARE NOT The fabric of your community.

quote: I mean, really. They're working 16 hours a day in a factory, and still live in absolute poverty, and you think they should be thankful?

Compared to the other jobs in their country? Uh... yeah!

	21-03-2004 03:21									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: American companies should be required to treat their overseas peons... err workers as they would an American employee in the States. Benefits, wages that are approirate for their living cost standards and so on.

Yeah, and then these countries suffer massive inflation and everyone who doesn't work for a American company can't afford jack. That's smart .

quote: They where weavers and farmers, and lived decent lives untill factories where opened up which they couldn't compete with.

Boo Hoo... if you can't compete with more efficient and better ways of production, get out of the way.

	21-03-2004 03:22									#115
	Got spare money?

shut up, Imran, you make me look bad.

	21-03-2004 03:27									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Wal-mart is very successfull, so it's hard to critisize them. I'm sure they have high employee turnover though. That's why they have recruitment commercials.

The last time I was in there I could hardly stand to wait in line because the ceiling fans and the florescent lights combined into a horrible headache producing effect. Jeez, I'll never apply there even if they paid more than minimum wage. I would go crazy before 1 hour, let alone 8.

	21-03-2004 03:33									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: shut up, Imran, you make me look bad.

quote: Wal-mart is very successfull, so it's hard to critisize them.

Well not really . Target is much better in terms of prices and quality. Though Sam's Club is very similar to Costco (I prefer Costco, but it is too far away for me).

	21-03-2004 03:34									#118
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Yeah, and then these countries suffer massive inflation and everyone who doesn't work for a American company can't afford jack. That's smart .

I thought this was your argument for why people should be happy to work in sweat-shops - 'cause they can't afford jack if they don't.

	21-03-2004 03:37									#119
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: shut up, Imran, you make me look bad. quote: Wal-mart is very successfull, so it's hard to critisize them. Well not really . Target is much better in terms of prices and quality. Though Sam's Club is very similar to Costco (I prefer Costco, but it is too far away for me).

I'm sure Wal-mart has much more market share.

	21-03-2004 03:39									#120
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: I thought this was your argument for why people should be happy to work in sweat-shops - 'cause they can't afford jack if they don't.

Of course they can afford stuff if they don't work in the sweatshops, but the sweatshop worker can afford MORE. That is the reason these sweatshop jobs are in high demand (and with low supply of them, the price of labor, naturally will be low).

Basically it's like people being happy to work in medicine (even though it may suck in the beginning) in the US, because they can afford more, even though a job like retail is much less demanding.