21-03-2004 09:52									#31
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Okay,
I admit I'm stupid and ill-informed. I guess the best thing to fight bomb police fight bomb police.
At what point will peace be achieved.

	21-03-2004 09:53									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus I guess the best thing to fight bomb police fight bomb police.

What? I am a bit confused with that statment.

	21-03-2004 09:54									#33
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Well I liked your idea about talking with Al- Qaeda. I hope they make the offer so we can "talk with" thier leadership in person.

	21-03-2004 09:56									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Well I liked your idea about talking with Al- Qaeda. I hope they make the offer so we can "talk with" thier leadership in person.

Ohhhh... Pax wanted me to do something... I'll be the head of the team that will talk.

*tucks 9MM underneath his shirt*

Sure I'll talk with Bin Laden.

	21-03-2004 09:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Okay, I admit I'm stupid and ill-informed. I guess the best thing to fight bomb police fight bomb police. At what point will peace be achieved.

When those that only know terror are destroyed or brought to justice. When the nations of the world say "Enough" and truly take united action . When muslim countries stop funding schools of religious bigotry and start embracing religious tolerence.

BTW, I didn't call you stupid. Many people are ill-informed on the fundmentalist movement...often confusing it with the different type goals that a group like the PLO have. Both are terrorist to be sure, but of quite different kinds.

	21-03-2004 10:00									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo *tucks 9MM underneath his shirt* Sure I'll talk with Bin Laden.

godspeed.

	21-03-2004 10:04									#37
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Start reading the evidence of al-Qaeda that has been found and then start reading what the terrorist are saying. Those are facts. This one doesn't fit into your "let's all be at peace and if we are not then it's the US fault" standard argument.

I agree.

Somebody needs to find that world domination map that was posted on here about a year ago. It shows the master plan of taking out each country one by one.

	21-03-2004 10:13									#38
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Yes, godspeed!

Once again, we don't have to talk with AQ itself.

I'm saying talk in the sense of coming to terms with Arab people. This conflict has been going on in one or another since the start of Islam. It's a very complex situation. It can be solved only through negotiation, capitulation, or genocide. If anyone has a better way then let's hear it. Killing OSL personally won't work. It's not OSL that is the problem. It's people who share his same ideas. killing all of the people who share his ideas won't work either because it only creates the impression that they were right in the first place. Bombngs in Madrid, NYC, and elsewhere make us all mad and angry. We want to do something. I think the first thing to do is try understanding and working things out with eachother.

I firmly believe that opinion of fundamentalists will not be changed by U.S. troops patrolling the streets of Baghdad. If anything it makes for more terrorists. The idea that you recommit your forces only agitates the problem.

I'm positive that most of the people on this site are a lot smarter than me. So give me a brilliant solution that does not involve war.

	21-03-2004 10:17									#39
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So let me ask... these terrorist groups speak for the arab people? What needs to happen is the arab people need to understand these terrorists are doing nothing to further their ownselves. Understanding and working things out? With who exactly? The Arab people is a general statement. For a fact, most of them aren't doing anything to the US. It is the terrorists who did 9/11. A minority of the people. You cannot deal or talk with them. They only want to kill westerners. There is no other stance on that issue. That's a fact. Ask the Israelis this.. like Sirot or any of the others. I also firmly believe talking with the terrorists will not change the opinion of fundamentalists.

	21-03-2004 10:21									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus I firmly believe that opinion of fundamentalists will not be changed by U.S. troops patrolling the streets of Baghdad.

Of course not. The goal is not to force things, but to create an enlightened environment where people can make informed and free decisions. In most muslim countries this is not the case. If we do our thing right in Iraq then the populace can make informed choices.

The fundamentalist get their power from two sources:

1.) Well financed despotic religious thought and,

2.) underdeveloped economic opportunity due to #1 causing limited educational exposure.

The opportunity of Iraq is to put into place a system that will allow people to have the ability to become better informed and then have the ability to act upon it through a democratic process.

	21-03-2004 10:25									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus I firmly believe that opinion of fundamentalists will not be changed by U.S. troops patrolling the streets of Baghdad. If anything it makes for more terrorists. The idea that you recommit your forces only agitates the problem.

The US understands this actually. That's why the June handoff to the Iraqis is extremly important. It changes the hands of control back into the Iraqis hands. The US forces are mostly going to be moved out of the cities and into remote bases around the cities, where they won't be seen so much. They will be available as needed.

quote: So give me a brilliant solution that does not involve war.

People like Bin Laden only understand force. You can't negotiate with someone like that. You either kill him or capture him. Sorry that's the way the world works.

Of course solving root problems is needed but force is sometimes necessary.

It's like the crime waves that hit America in the 80s. One camp was saying, "we need more police force and harsh jail time and that will solve the problem." The other camp would say, "no no, we need to solve the social problems and that will solve the problem."

The answer was a combination of both. You needed the force to relieve the pressure off of the neighboorhoods from gangs and drugs. That gave them breathing room to get the social programs and economic development in place that helped keep problems away. It wasn't perfect but the crime situation compared to then and now is like night and day.

The same combined tactics philosophy should be applied to terrorism. Eurocoms have said this week that they are committed to the social changes, meanwhile the US is going to keep whooping terrorist b1tch azz.

	21-03-2004 10:29									#42
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If the U.K. can talk with Sinn Fein
If the Spaniards can talk with the ETA
and etc.
Then someone can communicate with AQ.
The point of fact is that Americans in general want cheap oil/gas and we don't want our property or persons subject to terrorists attacks. That's the minimum. I'm sure that i smart guy like you can figure out how this can be accomplished with as little bloodshed as possible. Someone already pointed out that allowing the Arabs to establish their caliphate for example would take a lot of the focus off the western world. In fact, the attempt to get all of the different mslim governments to yield authority would be a battle in itself. I would much rather have muslims fighting eachother for control Cairo and Baghdad that fighting me for control of it.

	21-03-2004 10:29									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Yes, godspeed! Once again, we don't have to talk with AQ itself. I'm saying talk in the sense of coming to terms with Arab people. This conflict has been going on in one or another since the start of Islam. It's a very complex situation. It can be solved only through negotiation, capitulation, or genocide. If anyone has a better way then let's hear it. Killing OSL personally won't work. It's not OSL that is the problem. It's people who share his same ideas. killing all of the people who share his ideas won't work either because it only creates the impression that they were right in the first place. Bombngs in Madrid, NYC, and elsewhere make us all mad and angry. We want to do something. I think the first thing to do is try understanding and working things out with eachother. I firmly believe that opinion of fundamentalists will not be changed by U.S. troops patrolling the streets of Baghdad. If anything it makes for more terrorists. The idea that you recommit your forces only agitates the problem. I'm positive that most of the people on this site are a lot smarter than me. So give me a brilliant solution that does not involve war.

I think that if the growing tide of zenophobia in the middle east is to be stemmed without violence most of the dialogue will have to come from within the muslim community. History will prove my point, that when societies are able to make such changes without (much) bloodshed the motivation for the change comes from within.

	21-03-2004 10:30									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus If the Spaniards can talk with the ETA

They don't. In fact banned Batasuna, the political wing of ETA.

quote: Then someone can communicate with AQ. The point of fact is that Americans in general want cheap oil/gas and we don't want our property or persons subject to terrorists attacks. That's the minimum. I'm sure that i smart guy like you can figure out how this can be accomplished without as little blooshed as possible. Someone already pointed out that allowing the Arabs to establish their caliphate for example would take a lot of the focus off the western world. In fact, the attempt to get all of the different mslim governments to yield authority would be a battle in itself. I would much rather have muslims fighting eachother for control Cairo and Baghdad that fighting me for control of it.

I am not up for a surrender to Al Qaeda. We must go out there and kill them all. I am sorry but they only want to kill westerners. They will not stop with singing cumbaya. That doesn't work in the real world.

	21-03-2004 10:31									#45
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True

I think that if the Iranian youth ever emerges to take power, they could be the influential change from within that you are referring to Doc.

	21-03-2004 10:32									#46
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You're right of course that why should sign up to expedite killing them all.

	21-03-2004 10:32									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker True I think that if the Iranian youth ever emerges to take power, they could be the influential change from within that you are referring to Doc.

I see that too and that revolution is coming. Hey it will eventually come (inevitable) when the new generation comes to power when all the very old religious theocrats die.

	21-03-2004 10:32									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus If the U.K. can talk with Sinn Fein If the Spaniards can talk with the ETA and etc. Then someone can communicate with AQ.

All OBL has to do is arrange a personal meeting. I'm sure that someone from the US government would be willing to show up.

	21-03-2004 10:33									#49
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I agree with DOC!!

	21-03-2004 10:34									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc All OBL has to do is arrange a personal meeting. I'm sure that someone from the US government would be willing to show up.

There are 300 million of us who would just love to show up to that meeting.

	21-03-2004 10:34									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus You're right of course that why should sign up to expedite killing them all.

Why can't that be left to people more fit to do the job? I am sick of this shitty side tracking. If you have something to address, address my points. Not making irrelevant comments like this. There are people more fit then me to go out there and kill terrorists. They are called soldiers.

	21-03-2004 10:34									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus If the U.K. can talk with Sinn Fein If the Spaniards can talk with the ETA and etc.

As I thought I had pointed out earlier, all terrorist are not created out of the same mold. Both Sinn Fein(or IRA if you will) and ETA are trying to achieve political goals of their own. These goals do not involve the total subjagation of their enemy. In fact, both would probably prefer good relations with their enemy once their goals are obtained. AQ is different. There is no room for comprimise in their objectives and those objectives call for the destruction of all opposition. AQ cannot be bargained with...they must be destroyed or jailed...period.

	21-03-2004 10:35									#53
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO AQ cannot be bargained with...they must be destroyed or jailed...period.

	21-03-2004 10:54									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Why can't that be left to people more fit to do the job? I am sick of this shitty side tracking. If you have something to address, address my points. Not making irrelevant comments like this. There are people more fit then me to go out there and kill terrorists. They are called soldiers.

Sorry, once again. I still find that people who are motivated for action should also be willing to put themselves at the same risk our soldiers are put at. The way I see it there are American lives at stake. People I know personally. Before I risk there lives then I want to feel that it is worth it. I feel that your position as most people who are pro liberate Iraq are reckless. Even so, I am willing to risk my life in defense of my country and have sworn to defend it. I will obey orders I disagree with. All I ask in return is that the american people don't squander my life over B.S. I am not a pawn or any other piece on a chess board. If there is an opportunity for a lasting peace then I feel it should be pursued.
Failing peace of course the only recourse is war. In war, I want my people to win. But the last time we had a war in which the enemy was unseen was Vietnam. Even then, the Vietnmese were not able to strike anywhere in the world. This leads me to the conclusion that the approach to this war has to be to cause the terrorists to lose support at their base. Can this be done by occupying their base. It was not done in Vietnam were the U.S. always had military superiority. I want this war to be won by the U.S. but the only way to do that is to make terrorism unpopular and the thought of dying so far has not caused any noticeable effect on AQ.

	21-03-2004 11:05									#55
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The differences between the war on terror and Vietnam are so incredibly vast that noone could even begin to list them in the space provided here. They are also so incredibly vast that I find it nearly impossible to believe that you don't see enough of them to make that last post anything but a troll.

	21-03-2004 11:12									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Sorry, once again. I still find that people who are motivated for action should also be willing to put themselves at the same risk our soldiers are put at.

I personally think you are full of ****. First off there are people who have that job to do. There are better people for the job. And personally I can hold a damn opinion without being told I can't because I am not in the front lines.

quote: The way I see it there are American lives at stake. People I know personally. Before I risk there lives then I want to feel that it is worth it.

I know three people in Iraq right now

quote: I feel that your position as most people who are pro liberate Iraq are reckless.

You are reckless, stupid and arrogant. You consistently ignore the Iraqi people, you want them to die because you want to do nothing and you find that negogiating with terrorists is an option. If the world went your way, there would be no more western civilization. We would be all killed by terrorism. You either take a strong stance or you are with the terrorists.

quote: ll I ask in return is that the american people don't squander my life over B.S. I am not a pawn or any other piece on a chess board. If there is an opportunity for a lasting peace then I feel it should be pursued. Failing peace of course the only recourse is war. In war, I want my people to win.

Failing peace? What kind of nonsense is this? How can you get peace by talking with terrorists? They do not talk, only kill and the United States has a policy not to talk with terrorists.

quote: Can this be done by occupying their base. It was not done in Vietnam were the U.S. always had military superiority. I want this war to be won by the U.S. but the only way to do that is to make terrorism unpopular and the thought of dying so far has not caused any noticeable effect on AQ.

How else can it be done, numb nuts? I would like to hear this one. You are terribly reckless in thinking the terrorists would go away.

	21-03-2004 11:29									#57
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Once Again. I'm sorry if i have stepped on your right to free speech. I'm starting to understand what you mean about not being able to talk to someone. I keep telling you I support your right to free speech and you keep saying I don't.

I'm really not saying that you should give up the comfort of your home and go fight for your strong beliefs. I'm only saying that it's funny that a lot hawks stay at home while us chickens do the fighting.

I don't feel that we should surrender to any terrorists. I feel that we should stop labeling these groups as terrorists and talk not capitulate.

I'm sure that if those 3 people you know where to die over tere you would blame Saddam. The person who said these people were not welcome guests in Iraq.

Read all my posts and answer your own questions.

	21-03-2004 11:35									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Once Again. I'm sorry if i have stepped on your right to free speech. I'm starting to understand what you mean about not being able to talk to someone. I keep telling you I support your right to free speech and you keep saying I don't.

I didn't say that. You said I should serve in the front lines to have this point of view, when that is obviously not true.

quote: I'm only saying that it's funny that a lot hawks stay at home while us chickens do the fighting.

Not true. Most of the people I know in the US Military are not chickens. If anything nowadays it is you chickens protesting out in the streets. Not joining the military as it is voluntary.

quote: I don't feel that we should surrender to any terrorists. I feel that we should stop labeling these groups as terrorists and talk not capitulate.

Wrong again. They are terrorists. Not label Al Qaeda, Hezbollah or Hamas terrorist? What planet are you on? If blowing up innocent civilians isn't terror, then I don't know what is.

quote: I'm sure that if those 3 people you know where to die over tere you would blame Saddam. The person who said these people were not welcome guests in Iraq. Read all my posts and answer your own questions.

I would blame former Saddam militants because they would be the ones killing troops there. And if it wasn't that, it would of been an accident.

Your reasoning is abhorrently faulty.

	21-03-2004 11:42									#59
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Other than to say that this chicken is one of the ones fighting while you the hawk are not I have no more comments.

	21-03-2004 11:43									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Other than to say that this chicken is one of the ones fighting while you the hawk are not I have no more comments.

I'm not fit to serve as I am open about my homosexuality and am not the build. There are people for the job and all I know are proud of their duty and were for the war in Iraq. I also intend to finish my education and go onto a career, not the military as it is not for me. Comprende eso?