21-03-2004 01:55									#31
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For once, Ned is right.

The end is nigh.

	21-03-2004 02:01									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer For once, Ned is right. The end is nigh.

:runs to the window to see if the moon has turned blood red:

Technically he is right. However for historians and students of history, the label 'Byzantine Empire' is appriorate (sigh I need to learn how to spell this word) to help them to disguish which era throughout the history of the Roman Empire they're discussing or whatever. 'Eastern Roman Empire' is a suitable name and I've seen it being used. Just that 'Byzantine Empire' stuck. It doesn't matter, if you truly know your history, you know the story behind 'Byzantine Empire.'

	21-03-2004 02:32									#33
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This would be a disaster

The hottest hoes in the world like in Constantinople

We have to protect it at all costs

	21-03-2004 02:53									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I restore the Byzantine Empire all the time... In Europa Univerlis 2.

In my game of EU2 the Ottman start off with tech 30 in all technogogy. They now occup 1/3 of Italy ready to conquest more of Italy. Nime army and navy is so big and advance that when I attack someone his allies offer me white peace as they donot want to help my target at all.

	21-03-2004 03:04									#35
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It's quite the intimidating thought to contemplate, but CharlesBHoff's post has the most to do with reality, so far.

	21-03-2004 06:00									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ned There never was an empire known as the Byzantine Empire. It was known as the Roman Empire or as Romania.

In other news, the Dutch don't call themselves the Dutch.

	21-03-2004 06:27									#37
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Ned There never was an empire known as the Byzantine Empire. It was known as the Roman Empire or as Romania. In other news, the Dutch don't call themselves the Dutch.

Riiiight. Next you'll say the Germans don't call themselves "Germans." Pfft.

	21-03-2004 06:41									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Riiiight. Next you'll say the Germans don't call themselves "Germans." Pfft.

Have I mentioned there is no such thing as Finland?

	21-03-2004 06:44									#39
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Don't be surprised if the Greeks get Constantinople back someday.

	21-03-2004 06:46									#40
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Um.. I'd be highly surprised if they somehow acquired Istanbul again... it would require a huge war wiping out the Turkish state .

	21-03-2004 06:50									#41
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesBHoff In my game of EU2 the Ottman start off with tech 30 in all technogogy. They now occup 1/3 of Italy ready to conquest more of Italy. Nime army and navy is so big and advance that when I attack someone his allies offer me white peace as they donot want to help my target at all.

You play the Ottomans? You heathen!

Britain all the way, baby - if only for the pleasure of putting down the American rebellions and putting those tax dodgers in their place.

	21-03-2004 06:52									#42
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I had such a nice game with Britain, but then a little after 1710, the save game got corrupted .

I haven't really played a game of EU2 since.

	21-03-2004 06:55									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove No I mean the massacre of the Byzantines inhabiting Constantinople when it fell in the 15th century.

Some were killed, some were not- a Venetian eye-witness (Barbaro) said that quarters of the city that voluntarily submitted to the Turks avoided death:

'According to Islamic tradition the Sultan, before the beginning of hostilities, demanded the surrender of the city, promising to spare the lives of its inhabitants and respect their property. In a proud and dignified reply the Emperor rejected Mehmed's demand.'

Then:

'The Sultan swore to distribute fairly the treasures found in the city. According to tradition the troops were free to loot and sack the city for three days.'

and

'The excesses which followed, during the early hours of the Ottoman victory, are described in detail by eyewitnesses. They were, and unfortunately still are, a common practice, almost a ritual, among all armies capturing enemy strongholds and territory after a prolonged and violent struggle. '

but:

'In some distant neighborhoods, especially near the sea walls in the sea of Marmora, such as Psamathia, but also in the Golden Horn at Phanar and Petrion, where local fishermen opened the gates, while the enemy soldiers were pouring into the city from the land gates, local magistrates negotiated successfully their surrender to Hamza Bey's officers. Their act saved the lives of their fellow citizens. Furthermore their churches were not desecrated. '

http://www.greece.org/Romiosini/fall.html

Lest it be thought that this was a particularly odious 'Asiatic' practice, the same thing happened in Europe, as the fall of Rome to Charles V's Lutheran mercenaries illustrates, or the sack of Magdeburg, or the fall of Munster.

http://www.strategypage.com/cic/docs/cic66c.asp

Of course the city was rebuilt, refortified and repopulated, Greek subjects allowed to maintain their faith, and a new Patriarch, Gennadius elected, who lost no time in accepting control of the Orthodox churches of Serbia and Bulgaria, and finally repudiating union with Rome.

Why refound Byzantium anyway? The Byzantine Empire was markedly less tolerant than the Ottoman Empire.

	21-03-2004 08:41									#44
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"Why refound Byzantium anyway? The Byzantine Empire was markedly less tolerant than the Ottoman Empire."

Because one of the owners of this site is Greek, and he's kicking in a Poly T-shirt to Oerdin, a Polytoner who is stationed in Tikrit. Nice thing to do...

	21-03-2004 11:47									#45
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@Lancer. A winning argument, no doubt.

	21-03-2004 12:56									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ned That was a label affixed to the Eastern Roman Empire by some Brit Historian. The label seems to have become fixed in our minds. The people themselves were Romans. Their nation was the Roman Empire or Romania.

Eastern Roman Empire until around AD 450 or so when it became just The Roman Empire since there was no longer a Western Roman Empire.

	21-03-2004 14:18									#47
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Why refound Byzantium anyway? The Byzantine Empire was markedly less tolerant than the Ottoman Empire.

If you want to refound any Classical Civilization it should be Athens of the fifth century. Civilization has been on a downer ever since then.

	21-03-2004 16:11									#48
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less cynical reply:

Agathon is an elitist *****.

	21-03-2004 18:22									#49
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These days the Greek minority population in Turkey is pretty minimal, so there aren't any Greek populations of any real size to "liberate."

	21-03-2004 19:48									#50
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Why recapture Istanbul. In a few years time the city will be crushed and destroyed by an earthquake anyway! It's bound to happen anytime now. And nothing much is done by the authorities.

Check out the pauper's houses. Most of them can't handle earhtquakes, and certainly no powerful ones. It's going to be a huge bloodbath!

	22-03-2004 03:14									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If you want to refound any Classical Civilization it should be Athens of the fifth century. Civilization has been on a downer ever since then.

I'd prefer Hellenistic Alexandria- a tolerant multi-faith city, with scientists, theorists and inventors of the calibre of Hero of Alexandria, a library unmatched anywhere in the world, at the junction of Africa and Asia, open to the Mediterranean and Northern Europe- and they even had women scientists and mathematicians, and emancipated women- beats Athens, hands down.

5th century Athens- a place where a woman's age was calculated from the day she was married? I wonder how civilized YOUR wife feels it may have been, Aggie?

Let us know when the kantheros stops beating on your head.

	22-03-2004 03:18									#52
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Did he mean 5th century BC or AD? Or did anything happen in the 5th century AD there? Is this the start of a Monty Python sketch?

	22-03-2004 03:59									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Did he mean 5th century BC or AD? Or did anything happen in the 5th century AD there? Is this the start of a Monty Python sketch?

Hmm.

Well, as everyone knows, Emperor Justinian closed down the Academy of Athens in 529 a.d. , as part of a misguided campaign against what was seen as paganism.

Proclos wrote a commentary on Euclid, and an 'Outline of Astronomical Hypotheses' in the 5th century a.d. and taught at the Academy in Athens.

Is that of any help, Boris, or would you like the dead parrot sketch instead, or the recreation of the Battle of Pearl Harbour by the Batley Ladies' Townswomen's Guild?

	22-03-2004 05:20									#54
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Tabacconist shop sketch, please.

	22-03-2004 05:39									#55
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Ditto

Let's see it.

Use hand puppets if you have to.

	22-03-2004 06:42									#56
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Pssht. You want peace and tolerance, go make a cuckoo clock in Switzerland. Instead of being lynched, you'll die of boredom. The Byzantines at least had style going for them.

As to restoring Byzantium, I really don't care. I'd like to see those ugly minarets removed from the Hagia Sophia, but other than that...

	22-03-2004 06:58									#57
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Would you like to go back to my place, bouncy-bouncy?

	22-03-2004 07:03									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch There isn't a pan-EU foreign policy, so no.

I can't buy into that analysis. There isn't even a pan-USA foreign policy.

	22-03-2004 08:42									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You play the Ottomans? You heathen! Britain all the way, baby - if only for the pleasure of putting down the American rebellions and putting those tax dodgers in their place.

Did you know the English and Spain have than alli with the Ottomans which benfist all side nicely. Spain was trying to keep French out of Spain and fight the 30 year war in Germany. Spain didnot want Ottomans attacking Spain coast area the Ottomans want Spain to stay out of any war the Ottomans where fighting in the Med sea and Eastern Europe. They both reach agreement.

	22-03-2004 08:44									#60
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Travieso